Debi walks us through her remarkable journey—from 25 years as a full-time mother to returning to school and eventually earning her doctorate in Marriage and Family Therapy. We talk about what it means to start over later in life, the doubts and determination that come with that path, and how her experiences shaped the therapist, teacher, and leader she is today. There’s something powerful here for anyone who’s wondering if it’s too late—or if there’s still more they’re meant to step into.

We also get into her work in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), her role in mentoring therapists, and the impact of building something bigger than just a private practice. As co-owner of the EFT Counseling and Education Center in Utah, Debi has helped train and guide both new and seasoned clinicians, and she shares openly about what she’s learned about leadership, growth, and helping others find their voice in this field. We also touch on her book Conquering Your Inner Critic, and how her approach helps people challenge shame and strengthen self-worth in a real, practical way.

At its core, this episode is about expansion—about saying yes to life even when it feels uncertain. Debi shares what inspired her to launch a new podcast and how she continues to follow curiosity, purpose, and connection in this next chapter. It’s an honest, encouraging conversation about growth, legacy, and the idea that we’re never done becoming who we’re meant to be.

In this episode Ryan and I get right into one of the most frustrating parts of therapy—working with clients who are resistant, clients who block us at every turn as we search for vulnerability in them. Ryan artfully unpacks what “resistance” actually is from the attachment theory lens. He makes the argument that when clients are resistant, they are actually doing exactly what we, as therapists, should expect them to do. Negative cycles that cause deep pain and wounding are WHY couples come see us. Ryan does a great job of helping us see the nature of different kinds of resistance and how we can use this resistance, when we come to truly understand it, to do the work of EFT with couples

From an EFT lens, we look at resistance as protection—something organized, meaningful, and often necessary at one point in a person’s life. When you start to see it that way, the whole stance of the therapist begins to shift.

We talk about what resistance looks like in real sessions: clients who intellectualize everything, avoid emotion, deflect with humor, stay guarded, or keep conversations safely on the surface. Sometimes they agree with everything you say but nothing actually changes. Other times they push back, disengage, or just go quiet. And underneath all of that, there’s usually something much more vulnerable trying not to be exposed.

We also spend time on how therapists get pulled out of present process in these moments, falling into two traps:  listening too long to "content"; and digging in and pushing harder, asking more questions, trying to “break through,” or shifting into problem-solving, thus losing attunement.  

Ryan does a great job breaking down how to work WITH resistance instead of against it. That means getting curious about it, naming it gently, and helping the client see how it is a protective strategy that has worked well in the past, but that this same strategy is now driving the negative cycle, and causing deep pain for both partners. 

We get into very practical ways to access what’s underneath. How do you stay with just a small amount of emotion? How do you know if you, as the therapist,  you help someone feel safe enough to risk going deeper? How do you track when you’re going too fast or missing the moment entirely? These are the kinds of micro-skills that make a big difference.

There’s also a strong focus on the therapist’s internal experience. Resistant clients can trigger frustration, self-doubt, even a sense of failure. You can start to feel like you’re not doing good work, or that the client just “isn’t motivated.” We talk about how important it is to notice that reaction, slow yourself down, and come back to a grounded, non-defensive place.

Another big theme in this episode is trust—trusting the process, trusting that resistance has a purpose, and trusting that if you stay emotionally engaged and attuned, something will eventually shift. Not by force, but by connection.

We also touch on how to repair moments when things go off track. When you push too hard, miss something important, or feel the client shut down even more. Those moments, when handled well, can actually deepen the work instead of derail it.

This episode isn’t about a set of techniques you can memorize. It’s about a shift in how you see your clients and how you show up with them. When resistance is no longer the enemy, the work opens up in a completely different way.

If you’ve ever felt stuck with a client, unsure how to move forward, or frustrated that nothing seems to be changing, this conversation will help you reset. It brings you back to the core of EFT: slow down, stay with the emotion, respect the protection, and keep

What happens when more than 20 of the world's leading EFT trainers, trauma experts, and attachment researchers come together to tackle the toughest cases therapists face?

In this episode of Leaning Into the Fire, Ed Peterson welcomes renowned EFT Trainer Lisa Palmer-Olson for an inspiring conversation about the upcoming EFT Triage Conference in Las Vegas. Lisa shares the heart and vision behind this one-of-a-kind event, where leaders from Emotionally Focused Therapy, neuroscience, AEDP, ISTDP, and other cutting-edge approaches come together—not to debate—but to learn from one another in service of better helping clients heal.

Together, Ed and Lisa explore why some of the greatest breakthroughs in therapy happen when clinicians are willing to examine their own blocks, embrace vulnerability, and stay open to new perspectives. They discuss the often-overlooked importance of the self of the therapist, how therapist growth directly impacts client outcomes, and why community, humility, and lifelong learning are essential for becoming an exceptional clinician.

Whether you're an experienced EFT therapist, just beginning your attachment journey, or simply passionate about helping people heal from trauma and relationship pain, this episode offers wisdom, encouragement, and a compelling invitation to keep growing.

Topics include:

• The vision behind the groundbreaking EFT Triage Conference
• Treating trauma, addiction, affairs, and betrayal through an attachment lens
• Why the therapist's own emotional process matters
• Learning from multiple therapy models while staying grounded in EFT
• The power of supervision, community, and vulnerability in clinical growth
• How great therapists continue stretching, learning, and evolving throughout their careers

If you've ever felt stuck in your work—or simply want to become a more confident, emotionally attuned therapist—this conversation will challenge, inspire, and remind you why this work matters.