In construction, the unwritten rule is that the lowest bid wins the work. Daniel Wells and Nathan Sievers of Wells & Wells Construction built a multi-state firm on negotiated, repeat business instead.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Daniel Wells, Owner and President of Wells & Wells Construction, and Nathan Sievers, Vice President and Director of Preconstruction, to talk about how a relationship-first philosophy built a nationally recognized general contractor.

Wells & Wells started in 1989 as a one-person home renovation business and got its first big commercial break because its electrician kept recommending it to a developer. Nearly four decades later, Daniel and Nathan explain how they kept that relationship-first approach while adding the structure needed to grow into new markets. That includes treating subs as part of the team, giving clients an open-book look at costs early in preconstruction, and hiring people who share the firm's values.

In this episode
• How a referral from their electrician, not a marketing plan, opened the door to commercial work
• Why relationships alone weren't enough to grow until the firm added structure
• Why preconstruction is where a client first forms a real impression of the brand
• How paying subs on time and banning yelling on site shows up in the finished project
• Why being the owner's advocate keeps developers coming back without a bid
• Why Wells & Wells hires for culture fit over résumé

Key Takeaways
• In an industry where no-shows are the norm, reliability is a brand. Doing what you say you'll do is enough to set you apart.
• Reputation is worth paying for. Wells & Wells sometimes spends real money to protect a move-in date, because there may be 300 students moving in, but there are 600 parents to answer to.
• Best value beats best number. Sometimes that means recommending a more expensive plumber when the low bid doesn't look right, and sometimes it means trusting the low bidder because they've earned it.
• Values on a wall mean nothing if leaders don't model them. Character shows up when there's a problem or when money is on the line, and teams learn by watching how their leaders react.
• Nathan's pick, Extreme Ownership, reflects his belief that every leader, whether leading a team or just themselves, should ask what they could have done better.
• Daniel's picks are about mindset: No Easy Day for pushing through hard moments, and The Millionaire Next Door for not judging customers by appearances.

Resource and References

• Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-ownership
• No Easy Day by Mark Owen with Kevin Maurer: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/312085/no-easy-day-by-mark-owen
• The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/998.The_Millionaire_Next_Door

Learn more about Wells & Wells Construction: https://www.wellsandwells.com
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

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Most young architects dream of buildings that change the world, and casinos rarely make that list. David Nejelski spent 30 years proving that the right casino can transform an entire community.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with David Nejelski, Vice President, Creative Director, and Principal at TBE Architects, to explore how three decades of designing casino resorts with tribal nations turned into a lesson about listening, trust, and impact.

David started at TBE as an intern and quickly moved into conceptual design when his hand sketching caught the eye of the firm's design director. Over 30 years, he has helped tribes across North America build properties that function as economic engines while honoring the culture behind them. He shares why his team walks in without preconceived ideas, how the industry moved from themed fantasy environments to energy and experience, and why the most rewarding projects are the ones where the client pushes back the most.

In this episode

• Why a casino's first job is to be an economic engine for the tribe
• How to weave in cultural heritage without falling into stereotypes
• Why guest convenience and operational efficiency aren't at odds
• How tribal clients have evolved from first-time developers to sophisticated operators
• Why no design idea is sacred, and how iteration breaks you out of chasing perfection
• When a niche firm should stay focused and when it should chase new opportunities

Key Takeaways

• Repeat clients come from not showing up with a prepackaged idea. When you ask what the client wants and help them realize it, even when you'd have advised otherwise, you build relationships that last decades.
• The goal isn't a monument to yourself. David's team says "we" instead of "I" because the design belongs to the client, and the real skill is hearing what they mean, not just what they say.
• Cultural expression works best when it's felt, not shouted. Abstracting stories and meaning into arrival sequences and public spaces honors heritage without turning a resort into a museum or a stereotype.
• Guest convenience is the guest experience. If it's a hassle to park, get inside, or find services, guests will go somewhere else, so smart design serves the operation and the visitor at the same time.
• Know what you want to be the best at, and keep your head up. David points to podcasts like My First Million for the entrepreneurial mindset his partners value: stick to your core values, and don't let the next opportunity pass you by.

Resource and References

• The Joe Rogan Experience: https://www.joerogan.com/
• My First Million podcast: https://www.mfmpod.com/

Learn more about TBE Architects: https://www.tbearchitects.com/
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

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For decades, business development in engineering firms played second fiddle to the technical work. Amanda Payne built a career proving that wrong.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Amanda Payne, Vice President and Business Development Director at Horner & Shifrin, to talk about what happens when a firm treats business development as a peer discipline to its engineering work, not a support function bolted on after the fact.

Amanda started in architecture school at Drury University, spent five years defending hand-drawn designs in studio crits, and eventually realized that training was better preparation for business development than for a desk job. She walks us through her rise from business development manager to the H&S board table, why she thinks 100% employee ownership is an underused trust signal with clients, and why too many BD directors get left out of the room where growth targets actually get set.

In this episode

• Why studio crits and all-nighters in architecture school turned out to be Amanda's real training for a career in business development
• Amanda's clear line between marketing and business development — and why blurring the two is her biggest pet peeve
• How Horner & Shifrin's 100% employee ownership becomes a trust signal in front of clients, not just an internal detail
• Why business development directors belong in strategic planning meetings, not just deal rooms
• The leadership lessons Amanda carried from chairing the SMPS St. Louis chapter into her seat on H&S's board
• How the AEC industry has changed for women in business development, and where it still has work to do

Key Takeaways

• Clients respond to an ESOP once it's explained to them — ownership signals that everyone at the firm has a stake in getting the work right, not just an HR detail.
• The instinct to present and defend your own work under pressure, built in architecture school, transfers directly to business development.
• Amanda pushed to have business development represented in strategic planning conversations. If BD isn't in the room, the growth plan and the pipeline stop lining up.
• Leading a volunteer board (SMPS St. Louis) taught Amanda how to delegate and trust a team, a lesson she carries into her seat on H&S's board today.
• Amanda's book pick, Leading Change by John Kotter, reinforced a leadership style that lets people stumble and learn rather than micromanaging every step.

Resource and References

• Leading Change by John P. Kotter: https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Change-New-Preface-Author/dp/1422186431
• Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: https://lemonadamedia.com/show/wiser-than-me-with-julia-louis-dreyfus/

Learn more about Horner & Shifrin: https://www.hornershifrin.com/
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

About Amanda Payne

Amanda Payne is Vice President and Business Development Director at Horner & Shifrin, where she leads business development strategy for the firm. She has over 15 years working in business development and marketing within the AEC industry, with a career built on reorganizing business development and marketing strategies, improving efficiency and win rates, managing large-scale project proposals, and cultivating the client relationships that turn into long-term partnerships.

Amanda's leadership extends beyond her role at Horner & Shifrin through her active involvement in professional and community organizations. She has chaired corporate United Way campaigns, volunteered in support of Mercy Hospital special events, and serves on the committee for St. Louis KIDstruction, a fundraising initiative benefiting St. Louis Children's Hospital. Amanda has also held leadership positions with Commercial Real Estate Women (CREW) St. Louis and the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS) St. Louis Chapter, where she has served on the Board of Directors and as Chapter President.

 Amanda brings a unique viewpoint to conversations about client and employee experience, having spent her career on both relationship building with clients and helping shape internal culture and strategic initiatives.

 She lives in the St. Louis area with her husband, JR, and their three children.

#Horner&Shifrin #AECMarketing #aecindustry #EmployeeExperience #ClientExperience #SMPS #BrandStrategy

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with Brad Thurman, Principal and Chief Marketing Officer at Wallace Design Collective, to talk about what happens when an engineer decides the firm's brand matters as much as its work.

Brad joined the firm in 1987 as a project engineer and spent a decade in pure technical work before moving into marketing — a path that made him one of AEC's most recognized "seller-doers." He walks us through the firm's boldest move yet: dropping "engineering" from its name entirely and rebranding as Wallace Design Collective for its 40th anniversary, and why he believes human relationships will matter more, not less, as AI takes over the busywork.

In this episode

• Why being a "seller-doer" and an engineer who can also sell, became Brad's career advantage
• The story behind dropping "engineering" from the firm's name to become Wallace Design Collective
• How "dedicated to the art of engineering" quietly became "dedicated to the art of possibility"
• Wallace's retention playbook: the Glee Club, a paid volunteer day, and twice-yearly "echo meetings"
• Why AI will make relationships more valuable in professional services, not less
• What technical teams and marketing teams get wrong about each other and how to fix it

Key Takeaways

• Clients want to know who they're actually hiring before they sign on.

• Being upfront about who you are, even knowing it won't be everyone's cup of tea, builds more trust than a polished, generic pitch.

• Some of Brad's closest professional relationships are with his direct competitors. SMPS taught him that peer networks, even across rival firms, are a real business asset, not just networking small talk.

• Marketing and technical work are a symbiotic relationship. Treat them as separate silos and you lose both talent and business.

• Brad's book pick, Team of Rivals, reflects a leadership belief he still lives by: build a team with people willing to tell you no.

Resource and References

• Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2199.Team_of_Rivals

Learn more about Wallace Design Collective: https://wallace.design
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

About Brad Thurman

Brad Thurman is a principal and Chief Marketing Officer of Wallace Design Collective, a professional consulting firm offering structural and civil engineering, landscape architecture, surveying and assessments. He joined Wallace in 1987 and is a licensed Professional Engineer. Since 1998, Brad has helped lead Wallace’s marketing and business development efforts across four disciplines and eight offices. He is a past president of the Oklahoma Chapter of the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS), served as the 2013-14 President on the SMPS National Board, and served as a trustee and as president of the SMPS Foundation Board of Trustees. Brad is a Certified Professional Services Marketer, was named a Fellow of SMPS in 2009, was elected to the National Academy of Construction in 2018, and was the 2025 recipient of SMPS's Weld Coxe Marketing Achievement Award.

#WallaceDesignCollective #AECMarketing #aecindustry #EmployeeExperience #ClientExperience #SMPS #BrandStrategy

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Corey Morris, owner and CEO of Voltage and creator of the START planning process, to explore why so many marketing reports look great and still leave a business no better off. After more than twenty years in SEO and digital marketing, Corey discovered that the real driver of long-term growth isn't rankings or traffic, it's proof that marketing connects to revenue, and he's built his agency's entire framework around making sure that connection never gets lost.

The conversation moves from a very early career gut punch (a report full of great rankings for a client who hadn't landed a single new case) into the discipline Corey built in response: a five-step framework where the R stands for review, not reporting, because reviewing looks forward and reporting just looks back. Corey and the hosts also dig into how AI-driven search is quietly rewarding quality over quantity, and why chasing a spot on a competitor's self-serving "best of" listicle can backfire when the AI engine cites the list but drops your name from it entirely.

Whether you're leading a marketing team, running an agency, or just trying to prove your own department's worth before the next budget meeting, this episode offers practical insights into making marketing measurable without losing the strategy behind it.

In This Episode

• Why "good metrics" don't mean anything until they connect straight to revenue
• The difference between reporting and review, and why one is a leadership habit and the other a passive exercise
• Why AI-driven search is rewarding quality over quantity, and quietly penalizing self-serving "best of" listicles
• Why Voltage walked away from full-service work to go deeper on fewer service lines
• How to build a sustainable content engine off one piece of cornerstone content instead of starting from scratch every week
• Why marketing works better as an investment mindset than a vending machine
• Corey's path from web project manager to SEO specialist to agency owner at Voltage

Key Takeaways

• Marketing metrics only matter when they're tied to a review process that connects them to real revenue impact, not just a quarterly report.
• In an AI-saturated search landscape, genuine expertise and a clear point of view differentiate a brand more than sheer volume of content.
• Specializing in fewer service lines, done at a top-tier level, builds more client trust than trying to be a one-stop shop.
• One well-built piece of cornerstone content (a book, a keynote, original research) can be responsibly scaled into months of authentic thought leadership.
• Marketing works best when it's treated like a long-term investment reviewed on a schedule, not a vending machine pulled whenever leads are needed.

Resources & References

• The Digital Marketing Success Plan by Corey Morris
• Sell with Authority by Drew McLellan and Stephen Woessner
• Rethinking Work by Rishad Tobaccowala

About Corey Morris

Corey Morris is a best-selling author, speaker, and marketing leader. He is the creator of the START Planning Process and the founder of Digital Marketing Success Plan®. 

He is the owner and President/CEO of VOLTAGE, a specialist digital agency focused on digital strategy, search/AI marketing, and websites. With more than 20 years of experience, Corey has led award-winning initiatives for brands at local, national, and global levels, helping leadership teams align marketing execution with measurable business outcomes. 

 His work focuses on helping leadership teams bring clarity, accountability, and adaptability to marketing decisions in an era of rapid change. Corey is a monthly expert contributor to Search Engine Journal and Search Engine Land. He speaks throughout North America on SEO, AI, and marketing strategy and accountability and has presented at events including SMX and Digital Summit. His industry leadership and community impact earned him the KCDMA’s 2019 Marketer of the Year award.

Connect with Corey Morris!

• CoreyMorris.com
• Corey Morris on LinkedIn

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Jamie Shibley believes the strongest businesses aren't built on transactions, they're built on relationships that are cared for on purpose, every single time.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Jamie Shibley, CEO of The Expressory and best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement, to explore how genuine human connection can become a repeatable business strategy. After twenty years in IT and e-commerce, Jamie discovered that the real driver of long-term growth isn't logistics or marketing spend, it's emotional equity, and she's built her agency around helping companies build it deliberately.

The conversation moves from client gifting and referral nurturing into the more surprising territory of internal culture, making the case that how leaders acknowledge their own teams is the clearest predictor of how those teams will treat clients. Jamie and Jerry also dig into why AI and digital fatigue are pushing people back toward old-school, in-person connection rather than replacing it, and why the smallest, most human gestures; a handwritten note, a phone call, a "thank you" on the way out the door. are becoming the biggest competitive advantage available to any brand.

Whether you're leading a team, nurturing client relationships, or building a brand from the inside out, this episode offers practical insights into turning care into a system without losing what makes it feel genuine.

In This Episode

• Why "systematizing care" doesn't strip away authenticity. it scales it
• How to build a touch-point strategy for clients, prospects, and referral partners
• The connection between employee experience and client experience
• Why quiet, uneventful stretches in a relationship are often the biggest warning sign
• How AI and digital fatigue are driving a return to in-person, human connection
• What leaders often get wrong about brand, and why it's more about consistency than logos
• Jamie's path from twenty years in corporate e-commerce to founding The Expressory

Key Takeaways

• Genuine connection can be systematized without becoming impersonal — the system just has to be built on real research and intention.
• The best predictor of how a team treats clients is how its leaders treat the team.
• In a world saturated with AI-generated content, small, unmistakably human gestures are becoming a brand's sharpest differentiator.
• Relationships erode quietly, in the space between projects and regular, low-effort touch points are what keep them alive.
• The strongest brands are built on consistent private acts of care, not just public messaging.

Resources & References

• Relationship-First Strategic Engagement by Jamie Shibley
• Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara

About Jamie Shibley

Jamie Shibley is the CEO of The Expressory, a strategic engagement agency that believes the key to accelerating business growth and profitability in the post-COVID era lies in your ability to create emotional equity through nurturing meaningful relationships.
 A former IT and eCommerce leader with 20 years of corporate experience, Jamie went on to launch her own successful online brand where she discovered the true power of thoughtful, strategic gifting. Now, she's on a mission to help businesses reconnect on a human level and positively impact mental wellbeing by showing care and acknowledgement in meaningful ways.
 Jamie is the best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement and is widely respected as a market leader. Her work has been featured on Entertainment Tonight and Forbes.com. 

Connect with Jamie Shibley

• The Expressory
• Jamie Shibley on LinkedIn

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Architecture is often thought of as the art of designing buildings, but Danny Forster sees it as something much bigger: the art of communicating an experience before it exists.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture to explore how storytelling shapes the built environment. Danny explains why architects aren't really delivering buildings. They're helping people imagine a future, understand how they'll experience a space, and connect emotionally to a vision long before construction begins.

The conversation expands beyond architecture into branding, leadership, artificial intelligence, and communication. Danny shares why every profession is ultimately in the business of telling stories, how AI is changing the relationship between experts and clients, and why curiosity remains one of the most valuable traits for leaders navigating uncertainty.

Whether you're designing workplaces, building brands, or leading teams, this episode offers practical insights into making the intangible tangible.

In this episode

•  Why architecture is fundamentally an act of communication 
•  The role storytelling plays in helping clients experience the future 
•  How physical spaces shape culture and organizational identity 
•  Why the best design begins with understanding human experience 
•  How AI is transforming creative work and professional services 
•  The importance of curiosity, empathy, and clear communication in leadership 
•  Lessons from Danny's career spanning architecture, television, entrepreneurship, and education 

Key Takeaways

•  Great design is about creating an experience, not simply delivering a product. 
•  Storytelling helps people understand ideas they can't yet see. 
•  Architecture, branding, and communication all begin with empathy for the audience. 
•  AI is changing how experts communicate, but it won't replace the need for human judgment and creativity. 
•  The strongest brands are built by intentionally shaping the experiences people have every day. 

Resources & References

•  Danny Forster's TED Talk 

About Danny Forster

Danny Forster is an architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, TED speaker, entrepreneur, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture. Throughout his career, he has combined architecture, storytelling, and technology to help organizations communicate the vision behind the spaces they create. His work spans hospitality, urban planning, residential design, modular construction, and media, with projects ranging from Marriott developments to Taylor Swift's penthouse renovation.

Connect with Danny

Website: https://www.dannyforster.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannyforster/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyforster

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Jeff Sample believes employee experience starts with a simple question: do leaders truly understand what their people go through every day?

Jeff joins Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead to discuss how organizations can create stronger cultures by focusing less on slogans and more on understanding the realities of work. Drawing on his background in IT, software development, construction technology, and field operations, Jeff explains why empathy, trust, and curiosity are essential leadership skills.

The conversation explores how culture influences business performance, why technology initiatives often fail when they ignore employee needs, and how organizations can create environments where people feel supported, valued, and able to do their best work.

For leaders in AEC and professional services, the episode offers practical insights into building cultures that improve both employee and client experiences.

Key Topics Discussed

•  Defining employee experience beyond compensation and benefits 
•  Why understanding daily work matters for leaders 
•  The connection between employee experience and client experience 
•  Building trust during organizational change 
•  Technology adoption and employee buy-in 
•  Culture as a business enabler 
•  Creating psychological safety and accountability 
•  The role of curiosity in effective leadership 
•  Why relationships remain central in a digital world 
•  Retention, engagement, and employee value 

Resources Mentioned

• How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan Gardner 
•  The Curiosity Shop with Adam Grant & Brené Brown 
•  ConTechCrew Podcast

About Jeff Sample

Jeff Sample is Senior Industry Development Manager for Trades at Bluebeam, where he works with specialty contractors and construction professionals to improve workflows and operational performance. With more than 25 years of experience spanning IT, operations, software development, and construction technology, Jeff is known for helping organizations bridge the gap between technology, culture, and business outcomes. He is also co-host of the long-running ConTechCrew podcast.

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In this episode, Jerry and Carl talk with Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, about what experience really means inside an AEC firm.

Jill’s work sits at the intersection of marketing, strategy, brand, client relationships, and internal culture. She explains why a firm’s brand is not just what it says externally. It is also how people inside the firm work together, communicate, make decisions, and show up for clients.

The conversation explores how Cline has thought about growth, leadership transition, rebranding, and the challenge of making something as abstract as “experience” feel tangible. Jill also shares why relationships and professional networks matter, especially when leaders face decisions they cannot make alone.

In this episode, we cover:

•  Jill’s path from marketing director to Chief Strategy Officer 
•  Why Cline’s brand needed to catch up with who the firm had become 
•  How internal culture affects external client experience 
•  Why architects and designers may need to think more intentionally about the business relationship side of experience 
•  How outside perspective can help a firm better understand itself 
•  Why communication is central to strategy 
•  Jill’s advice to build a strong professional network 

Resource mentioned:

•  SmartLess podcast 

Where to find Jill:

•  Jill Davis on LinkedIn 

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Caitlyn Cook, Marketing and Employee Owner Experience Lead at ESS Companies, to explore how employee ownership reshapes culture, accountability, and brand.

Caitlyn shares how her role bridges marketing and the employee experience, and how ESS has grown rapidly while maintaining a strong sense of ownership across its teams. We talk about what it takes to build connection across regions, why culture cannot be manufactured from the top down, and how employee ownership changes the way people show up to their work.

The conversation also looks at the relationship between employee experience and client experience, why alignment between marketing, HR, and leadership is critical, and how firms can create a culture that actually holds as they scale.

We cover:
 • What changes when employees are also owners
 • Why employee ownership shapes both culture and brand
 • How employee experience influences client experience
 • Why culture is built through connection, not messaging
 • The importance of alignment across marketing, HR, and leadership
 • How to maintain culture while scaling a growing organization

Recommended resource:
 • Radical Candor by Kim Scott

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Brittany Hodak to explore what it really takes to turn satisfied customers into enthusiastic advocates. Drawing from a career that spans entertainment, fan engagement, marketing, and consumer behavior, Brittany brings a sharp perspective on why the brands that win are the ones that create experiences people want to talk about. 

Brittany explains that customer experience is no longer judged only against direct competitors. Instead, clients compare every interaction to the best experiences they have anywhere else in their lives. That shift raises the bar for every firm, especially in professional services, where differentiation often comes down to how it feels to work with you. 

The conversation also digs into why leaders often separate acquisition from retention, why that is a mistake, and why every person on a team is part of what Brittany calls the “experience department.” Her core idea is simple and powerful: superfans are the stakeholders so delighted by their experience that they become advocates, refer others, and help create more clients. 

We cover:
 • Why customer experience is the real competitive battlefield
 • How brands move from commodity provider to category of one
 • What leaders misunderstand about acquisition, retention, and advocacy
 • Why every team member contributes to the client experience
 • How exceptional experiences naturally drive referrals
 • What it means to create superfans, not just satisfied customers

Recommended resource:
 • Creating Superfans by Brittany Hodak 

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In this episode, Sharon Toerek joins The Intangible Brand to explore how intellectual property and brand strategy intersect. As an IP attorney working closely with creative firms, Sharon offers a perspective that reframes brand as a form of intellectual capital — one that is often misunderstood, undervalued, and underprotected.

Key Takeaways

Brand is often treated as secondary to “hard IP,” but Sharon challenges that assumption. Trademarks, identity, and reputation are all forms of intellectual property that can carry significant enterprise value. 

Many firms define intellectual property too narrowly, which limits how they think about protecting and leveraging it. That narrow definition can lead to missed opportunities to create and capture value. 

Sharon describes her work as having a “front row seat to creativity,” highlighting how creative output is not just expressive but economically impactful. 

Brand protection is not just a legal safeguard. It is a strategic lever that allows firms to monetize their ideas, strengthen differentiation, and scale their impact. 

There is often a disconnect between marketing and legal perspectives inside firms. Bridging that gap can help organizations better understand, protect, and grow their intangible assets.

Recommended resource:

• The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber 
• The Innovative Agency Podcast by Sharon Toerek 

About the Guest
Sharon Toerek is an intellectual property and marketing law attorney and the founder of Legal & Creative. She works with agencies and creative professionals to protect, enforce, and monetize their intellectual capital. She also hosts the Innovative Agency podcast and has served in leadership roles including past president of the American Advertising Federation Cleveland. 

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry is joined by Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, for a conversation with Neen James, leadership strategist and author of Exceptional Experiences, to explore what it really takes to create moments that people remember.

Neen shares how her work with leaders and luxury brands led her to a simple but powerful idea: luxury is not about price or exclusivity, it is about how people feel. We talk about the role of attention and intention in shaping both employee and client experience, and why organizations need to design these moments on purpose rather than leaving them to chance.

The conversation also looks at how research can challenge assumptions about what clients value, why teams need to experience care internally before they can deliver it externally, and how leaders can build practical frameworks that make exceptional experiences repeatable.

We cover:
 • Why luxury is about experience, not price
 • How attention and intention shape meaningful interactions
 • What professional service firms can learn from luxury brands
 • Why employee experience comes before client experience
 • The role of research in understanding what people truly value
 • How to design experiences that are consistent and repeatable

Recommended resource:
 • Exceptional Experiences by Neen James
• Attention Pays by Neen James

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Jennifer Sebranek of GBBN to explore what real differentiation looks like in architecture and professional services and why brand extends far beyond logos, taglines, and marketing campaigns.

Jennifer shares how firms can create alignment around a clear core message, why consistency across teams matters more than clever positioning, and how marketers can show up as the voice of the client inside their organizations. We talk about what clients actually experience when working with a firm, how culture shapes brand in ways leaders often underestimate, and why differentiation is earned through behavior, not declared in copy.

We cover:
 • Why brand goes far beyond tangible assets like logos and websites
 • How to build a clear, consistent core message across a firm
 • What clients actually remember about working with you
 • The role of marketing as the voice of the client internally
 • Why differentiation is operational, not just verbal
 • How culture and collaboration shape brand perception

Recommended resource:
 • Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Pamela Slim to explore what it really takes to scale an expert-led firm without diluting the client experience that made it successful in the first place.

Pamela shares insights from her work advising founders and professional service leaders who want to grow into larger, more complex markets. As firms expand, positioning gets blurrier, operations get strained, and client expectations evolve. The tension is real: growth creates opportunity, but it also exposes gaps in systems, clarity, and leadership alignment.

We talk about what Pamela calls building a “widest net” business, one where the brand promise, delivery systems, and team experience are aligned. The conversation digs into how market perception can drift from reality, why operational discipline is essential for protecting brand equity, and how leaders can design businesses that scale without burning out their people or confusing their clients.

This episode offers practical perspective for professional service leaders who want growth that strengthens their brand rather than undermines it.

We cover:

• What it means to scale without eroding client experience
• Why expert-led firms struggle as they move into larger markets
• The gap between market perception and actual delivery
• How systems and profitability discipline protect brand integrity
• Aligning team experience with client expectations
• What a “widest net” business really looks like in practice

Resources mentioned:

• Exceptional Experiences by Neen James
• Podcast by Nathan Barry (CEO of Kit, formerly ConvertKit)

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with George Ghneim, a veterinarian, restaurateur, and distiller, to explore what brand and experience look like in businesses where emotions run high and the work is deeply human.

George shares lessons from veterinary medicine and hospitality, two fields where trust, empathy, and presence are not optional. We talk about how client experience is inseparable from employee experience, especially when teams are navigating stress, grief, or urgency. George also unpacks how he thinks about brand at a small-business level, from naming and visual identity to the signals leaders send through everyday decisions.

The conversation digs into how leaders can stay grounded in tense moments, why listening is often more powerful than reacting, and how support teams quietly shape the outcomes clients remember most. Throughout, George emphasizes care as a leadership discipline, not a soft value, and explains why the best brands are built through consistent human behavior rather than marketing alone.

This episode offers a grounded, practical perspective for leaders in professional services who want to build brands rooted in trust, empathy, and real-world service.

We cover:

• What veterinary medicine and hospitality teach us about experience
• Why employee experience and client experience cannot be separated
• Staying calm and empathetic in emotionally charged situations
• How listening builds trust more effectively than quick fixes
• Building brand through everyday leadership decisions
• The role of support teams in shaping client outcomes

Resources mentioned:

• Peace Is Every Step by Thich Nhat Hanh

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Benjamin Sachwald, Senior Vice President of Acoustics, Noise, and Vibration at AKRF, to explore a dimension of employee experience that is often overlooked but deeply felt: sound.

Benjamin helps unpack why acoustics is becoming a more visible and strategic part of workplace design, especially as organizations rethink offices, hybrid work, and what it means to create spaces people actually want to use. We talk about how “office vibe” is shaped not just by what we see, but by what we hear, and why sound plays a major role in focus, collaboration, and overall well-being.

The conversation also looks at why acoustics can feel like a black box for many teams, how late-stage fixes often fail, and what it takes to make sound an intentional part of the design process. Benjamin shares how tools like Pindrop help teams hear design intent earlier, and why creating the right mix of spaces for calls, focus, and collaboration is really about cultural clarity.

This episode offers a practical lens for leaders, designers, and firm owners who want to think more holistically about how the built environment supports both employee experience and client perception.

We cover:

• Why acoustics is gaining importance in people-centric workplace design
• How sound shapes “office vibe” and cultural perception
• The challenges of open offices, hybrid work, and acoustic privacy
• Designing spaces that support focus, calls, and collaboration
• Making acoustics an intentional part of the design process
• How tools like Pindrop help teams understand sound earlier

Resources mentioned:

• 20,000 Hertz podcast, with a recommendation to start with the THX Deep Note episode
• AKRF and Benjamin Sachwald on LinkedIn

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl talk with Dr. Will Percy, Executive Vice President at TeamOptix and author of Slaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace Engagement, about why so many engagement efforts feel busy but ineffective.

Will introduces the idea of “engagement zombies” the outdated beliefs, metrics, and programs that continue to walk around organizations long after they have stopped helping anyone. We explore why happiness and engagement are not the same thing, how toxicity often hides inside “high-performing” cultures, and why leadership behavior, not perks or surveys, ultimately shapes the employee experience.

The conversation digs into how chaos, unclear expectations, and tolerance of the wrong behaviors quietly drain teams, especially in creative and professional service environments. Will also shares how data can be used as a coaching tool rather than a weapon, and what collective leadership actually looks like when it is done well.

This episode is a practical look at how leaders can move beyond surface-level engagement efforts and create environments where people can do their best work without burning out or checking out.

We cover:

• Why happiness is not the same as engagement
• What workplace toxicity looks like beyond extreme examples
• How chaos and lack of clarity become cultural toxins
• Why promotions and tolerance reveal true leadership values
• Using data to support growth instead of surveillance
• What collective leadership looks like in practice

Resources mentioned:

• The Chimp Paradox by Steve Peters
• Zombie Economics: The Dead Ideas Still Walk Among Us by John Quiggin
• Slaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace Engagement

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Susan Baier, founder of Audience Audit, to explore how professional service firms can build stronger brands by understanding what their audiences actually believe, not just who they are on paper.

Susan explains why demographics and generic personas often fall short, and how attitudinal research helps firms sharpen their point of view, create more relevant thought leadership, and earn trust over time. We talk about what clients really expect from expertise-led brands, how original research becomes a long-term differentiator, and where AI supports marketing teams versus where it risks flattening credibility.

We cover:
• Why perspective matters more than demographics
• What attitudinal segmentation reveals that personas miss
• How custom research creates defensible differentiation
• What clients actually want from thought leadership
• The role of trust, substance, and experience in brand building
• Where AI helps and where it can quietly erode credibility

Recommended resource:
• Exceptional Experiences podcast by Neen James

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In this episode, we talk with Tate Fisher about what it really takes to design service experiences that serve customers, support employees, and work for the business. Tate draws on years of work with multi location and franchise brands to explain why service is always co created and why balance across those three stakeholders matters more than any single tactic.

The conversation hits on how to build predictable systems without stripping out humanity, what frontline teams actually need in order to create meaningful moments, and why real behavior should shape both spaces and processes. Tate also shares what he’s learned from navigating franchisor–franchisee dynamics and the north star that helps both sides stay aligned.

What We Cover:

• The customer–employee–owner framework
• How co creation shows up inside physical service environments
• Designing systems that free people to deliver better experiences
• Lessons from telecom, franchise networks, and student housing
• Where alignment breaks down in multi site brands and how to fix it

Resources Mentioned:

• The Founders podcast

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Tate Fisher and Katalyst Group

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl talk with Brandon Coleman Jr., a brand strategist, speaker, and author who has spent five decades helping organizations understand what brand really is and how culture shapes it.

Brandon shares the stories and lessons that shaped his philosophy, from early mentors who challenged him to define value, to the rebrand of his own family firm, to his favorite example of culture-powered consistency at Buc-ee’s. His message is simple but hard-hitting: brands are built by people, trained through culture, and proven through experience.

In this Episode

• What “Brand On” means and why few organizations achieve it
 • How culture, training, and consistency shape real brand experience
 • Brandon’s early lessons in sales, confidence, and telling the truth
 • The rebrand of his family firm and what it taught him about identity
 • Why Buc-ee’s is a masterclass in operational culture
 • How employees become brand evangelists
 • Why big companies struggle with culture and where it breaks down

Guest

Brandon Coleman Jr. is a brand strategist, speaker, and author who has led thousands of brand alignment engagements across industries for more than 50 years. Known for his storytelling and straight talk, he teaches leaders how to build cultures that deliver on the brand every day.

Resources

• The Paradox of Success

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and guest host Alec Gleason talk with Shayne De La Force, a marketing strategist and author of Strategic Entanglement, a book that borrows principles from quantum physics to rethink how brand and growth operate together.

Shayne shares how global brands can close the gap between marketing and delivery, the cultural insights that inform his work, and why marketers must think like connectors — aligning teams, operations, and leadership around one shared promise.

In this Episode

• What “strategic entanglement” means — and why brand and growth are inseparable (00:05:20)
• The CMO as connector: integrating marketing into business strategy (00:10:45)
• Why understanding culture is essential to effective storytelling (00:18:00)
• Turning employees into brand evangelists and advocates (00:29:20)
• Marketing as a P&L generator, not a cost center (00:37:15)
• How global experience shapes local impact (00:44:10)

Guest

Shayne De La Force is a global marketing and brand leader known for applying systems thinking to growth. Through his work with international manufacturing and technology brands, he helps organizations translate complex innovation into human stories and measurable performance.

Resources

• Strategic Entanglement by Shayne De La Force

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and guest host Jill Davis sit down with Eddie Staley, Chief Innovation Officer, and Kristen Herndon, Director of Client Experience at WithersRavenel, an employee-owned engineering and consulting firm built around the idea that when employees think and act like owners, clients feel the difference.

Eddie and Kristen share how WithersRavenel connects culture, innovation, and client experience to deliver measurable impact. They unpack how employee ownership drives accountability, how client feedback loops shape continuous improvement, and how empathy turns data into loyalty.

From turning “detractors” into “promoters” to measuring satisfaction through Net Promoter Scores (NPS), this episode explores how intentional listening and internal collaboration create consistency, trust, and growth — one experience at a time.

In this Episode

• How employee ownership translates into client care (00:03:10)
• Building systems that make client feedback actionable (00:07:45)
• Using NPS and sentiment data to strengthen relationships (00:14:20)
• The role of empathy and curiosity in turning feedback into loyalty (00:19:55)
• Connecting internal culture with external client experience (00:25:40)
• Creating scalable, repeatable CX processes in professional services (00:31:15)
• The future of client experience in employee-owned firms (00:37:30)

Guests

Eddie Staley is Chief Innovation Officer at WithersRavenel, where he leads efforts to align data, technology, and culture in service of a stronger client experience.

Kristen Herndon is Director of Client Experience at WithersRavenel, guiding firm-wide initiatives to collect and act on client feedback, strengthen relationships, and translate insights into continuous improvement.

Together, they help connect the dots between ownership mindset, innovation, and client satisfaction.

Resources

The Customer Experience Playbook
The Intangible Brand episode featuring Tim Asimos (Client Savvy)
WithersRavenel — withersravenel.com

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Darrell Grant, Chief Experience Officer at Hightower Wealth Advisors, a firm redefining what client experience looks like in the wealth management space.

Darrell shares how intentional service design — what he calls a “butler mindset” — transforms everyday client interactions into moments of trust and care. He breaks down how small cues, like a prepared meeting room or a thoughtful follow-up, can signal excellence long before results are measured.

From his philosophy of “unbelievable” service to his belief that CX is a team sport, Darrell offers a practical look at how to build systems that make care consistent — not random. It’s a conversation about translating empathy into process and building trust by design.

In this Episode

• The “butler mindset” and how it shapes every client touchpoint (00:02:15)
• Bringing a brand promise of “unbelievable” service to life (00:06:45)
• Why great CX depends on shared systems, not heroic gestures (00:12:30)
• The 30-day follow-up that shows up when support fades (00:18:10)
• How internal culture enables consistent, human client experiences (00:24:00)
• The importance of aligning employee onboarding with client experience (00:30:25)

Guest

Darrell Grant is Chief Experience Officer at Hightower Wealth Advisors, where he leads efforts to design and deliver a client experience rooted in trust, consistency, and care. Drawing inspiration from Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara, Darrell helps his team turn small, thoughtful details into powerful signals of the firm’s brand promise.

Resources

• Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara
• Hightower Wealth Advisors
  
  

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Steven Gallo, Vice President, Client Services at Reputation Ink, a B2B marketing and PR agency for professional services firms.

Steve shares how PR can be more than an external visibility tool — it can also be a powerful driver of internal culture and employee engagement. Drawing on his work with architecture, engineering, and construction firms, Steve explains how to connect internal wins to external storytelling, choose the right communication channels, and align PR with HR and operations.

In this Episode

• Why PR is about more than coverage — it’s about culture, credibility, and reputation (00:03:15)
• How PR can become part of an employee recognition strategy (00:14:35)
• Turning project wins and innovation stories into morale-boosting recognition (00:31:35)
• Why authentic employee voices resonate more than leadership soundbites (00:34:30)
• Creating a feedback loop with HR and operations to ground stories in reality (00:34:55)

Guest
Steven Gallo is Vice President, Client Services at Reputation Ink, a B2B marketing and PR agency that works with professional services firms. He helps clients align media strategy with both external reputation and internal culture, ensuring communications strengthen the brand from the inside out.

Resources

• Spill The Ink Podcast
• Reputation Ink website

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Eric Anest, Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications at Salas O’Brien, a rapidly growing engineering and consulting firm.

Eric shares his perspective on the connection between employee experience and client experience — and why brand work must start inside the organization. Drawing on his experience leading multiple mergers, a major rebrand, and the ongoing work of unifying thousands of people under one values-driven identity, Eric explains how marketing can be more than a service function. It can be a driver of business outcomes.

This conversation highlights how culture, communication, and leadership align to create growth that’s both sustainable and meaningful — for employees and for clients alike.

In this Episode

• Why internal communication is the foundation of brand alignment (00:01:46)
• How employee engagement directly shapes client experience (00:04:21)
• What it takes to unify thousands of employees during mergers and growth (00:09:12)
• Why marketing must integrate into overall business strategy (00:16:45)
• The role of employee ownership in driving culture and outcomes (00:22:10)

Guest
Eric Anest is the Senior Vice President of Marketing and Communications at Salas O’Brien. He has been instrumental in leading brand strategy for one of North America’s fastest-growing engineering and consulting firms, overseeing mergers, a major rebrand, and the integration of thousands of employees into a unified, values-driven culture.

Resources

• Managing Transitions by William Bridges book
  
  
• At The Table with Patrick Lencioni podcast
  
  

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry welcomes Dave Minifie, a seasoned leader known for bringing clarity to the relationship between purpose, leadership, and organizational culture.

Dave shares his perspective on why understanding the “why” (whether in personal life, family, or within an organization) is essential to achieving long-term success. He explores how leaders can create environments that empower people to reach their full potential, while also helping organizations unlock possibilities beyond what they thought possible.

This conversation highlights how the personal and professional are inseparably linked, and why purpose and culture are more than just buzzwords. They’re the foundation for lasting impact.

In this Episode

• Why purpose is the foundation of effective leadership (00:09:56)
• How to cultivate a culture where people thrive and organizations grow (00:03:43)
  The importance of connecting personal values with professional leadership (00:09:56)
• How environment and trust can unlock untapped potential (00:04:28)
• Why purpose-driven organizations outperform others (00:22:38)

Guest

• Dave Minifie is the Principal of MinifiesTake, LLC, a strategic consultancy focused on helping organizations articulate their purpose, mission, and beliefs to cultivate an intentional culture and drive sustainable growth

Resources

• It’s Not What You Sell, It’s What You Stand For by Roy Spence Jr. [book]
• Start With Why by Simon Sinek [book] 
• Grow by Jim Stengel [book]
• Pivot with Kara Swisher [podcast]

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What happens when a brand refresh becomes a catalyst for cultural alignment, recruiting strength, and leadership clarity?

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, hosts Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead speak with Lindsay Wilson, President and Interior Sector Leader at Corgan, and Elizabeth Pierce, Chief Marketing Officer at Corgan. Together, they share how one of the nation’s largest architecture and design firms transformed its brand from a visual update into a powerful tool for internal cohesion and market positioning.

You’ll hear how Corgan moved from an external brand refresh to a unified employer brand—one grounded in employee input and connected to recruiting, retention, and everyday decision-making. Lindsay and Elizabeth offer candid insights on balancing authenticity with aspiration, aligning leadership around shared goals, and turning brand language into a practical framework for both big initiatives and small operational wins.

In this Episode

• The tipping points that led to Corgan’s brand evolution (06:47)
• Why starting with the external brand smoothed the internal process (40:05)
• How to unify a global firm under one brand identity (09:49)
• Turning values into actionable, observable behaviors (23:15)
• Using employer brand as a recruiting and retention advantage (24:49)
• Patience, leadership buy-in, and authenticity in brand adoption (32:55)
• Applying internal brand principles to everyday challenges (29:19)

Guests

• Lindsay Wilson is President and Interior Sector Leader at Corgan, where she leads with a focus on people, brand, and strategic growth.
• Elizabeth Pierce is Chief Marketing Officer at Corgan, overseeing core marketing, brand and experience, and communications teams to align internal culture with external brand perception.

Resources

The Square Podcast by Corgan [podcast]

Unreasonable Hospitality [book]

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Are you measuring client experience (CX) in a way that actually reflects reality, or just relying on outdated metrics?

In this episode, Tim Asimos, Head of Growth at Client Savvy, A ClearlyRated Company, explores what professional service firms get wrong about CX and how to build a client-centric culture that actually drives growth.

In this Episode

• How CX is gaining traction across AEC, especially through culture and leadership. (01:00)
• The difference between CX as a tactic vs. a firm-wide cultural mindset. (05:30)
• Why top-down buy-in is critical for sustainable CX success. (08:30)
• Shifting from technical delivery to differentiated client experience. (12:00)
• Creating internal alignment and empathy to improve client delivery. (16:30)
• Innovation as a leadership mindset and the barriers that hold firms back. (21:00)
• Embedding CX through dedicated roles, pilot programs, and empowered teams. (26:00)
• Connecting brand, employee experience, and client experience through culture. (30:30)
• Why journey-based client feedback outperforms single-point surveys. (35:00)
• How to get started: small steps for launching a CX practice. (40:00

Guest

Tim Asimos leads growth and marketing at Client Savvy. Client Savvy has helped more than 700 AEC firms design, deliver, and measure exceptional client experiences. Their CX software transforms client feedback into actionable insights that elevate client experiences, and drive revenue growth, client retention, and overall firm performance. 

Resources
Client Savvy, A ClearlyRated Company

WorkLife with Adam Grant [podcast]

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How do you lead a total brand transformation without losing what makes your firm… your firm?

In this episode, Jeffrey Taub, FSMPS, CPSM, and SVP of Corporate Marketing at AKRF, shares the inside story of rebranding a legacy company. From internal alignment to messaging strategy, Jeff walks us through the belief systems and processes that enabled a values-driven rebrand.

In this Episode

• Leading a full rebrand of AKRF to unify messaging and identity. (01:00)
• Using internal research and discovery to drive authenticity. (05:30)
• Building buy-in through senior leadership and a focused brand committee. (10:15)
• Launching a brand that employees rallied around — and still champion. (13:30)
• Centering the brand on “originality” and what that means day to day. (17:00)
• Applying originality to client work and internal innovation (e.g. AI adoption). (21:00)
• Aligning the rebrand with AKRF’s long-term strategic planning. (26:00)
• Advice for firms: prioritize alignment over consensus in branding work. (30:00)
• The role of physical space (like AKRF’s “Pin Drop” room) in expressing brand. (33:30)
• Final takeaway (39:00)

Guest

Jeffrey Taub is a seasoned marketing strategist with deep expertise in AEC branding. He is known for leading brand transformation initiatives that unite legacy values with modern positioning.

Resources

 AKRF

Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter [book]

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What’s the difference between a logo and a brand? In this episode, The Intangible Brand co-host Jerry Gennaria, President of TOKY, unpacks nearly 30 years of helping firms uncover and articulate their true brand identity.

In this Episode

• Jerry’s path from aspiring artist and self-taught designer to brand strategist. (01:00)
• How brand evolved from visual identity to holistic experience. (05:00)
• Why “brand is people” across industries and firm types. (09:00)
• The experience gap: why branding is often misjudged internally. (12:00)
• What brands like Disney teach us about expectation and friction. (15:00)
• Why defining your “why” is harder (and more personal) than it seems. (19:30)
• The value of outside perspective when uncovering brand truth. (22:00)
• Why this podcast exists as both platform and learning tool. (25:00)
• What Jerry believes most firms still miss: true differentiation. (28:30)
• Aligning values, behaviors, and experience to build lasting brand. (31:00)

Guest

Jerry Gennaria is President of TOKY, a brand consultancy for professional service firms. His work focuses on aligning internal culture with external brand perception to create trust and clarity.

Resources
TOKY

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Welcome to the premiere episode of The Intangible Brand—a podcast exploring how internal culture and employee experience shape the brands people trust, remember, and return to.

We’re starting with co-host Carl Winstead, Partner and Chief Experience Officer at Cline Design Associates. With a background in architecture and a passion for experience design, Carl has dedicated his career to shaping not just spaces, but how people experience professional service firms from the inside out.

In this Episode

• Launching the podcast and introducing Carl Winstead, CXO at Cline. (00:00)
• Carl’s early inspiration: how architecture created emotional impact. (02:00)
• Career shift from running a firm to leading experience strategy. (05:30)
• Creating the CXO role in a traditionally design-focused industry. (09:00)
• Why experience is central to both client and employee success. (12:15)
• Rethinking “corporate” culture in creative workplaces. (15:20)
• The brand is the experience, not just the portfolio. (19:00)
• Happy teams create happy clients, and vice versa. (22:30)
• The podcast as a tool for community and shared learning. (24:00)
• Carl’s core belief: grow people to grow impact. (27:00)

Guest

Carl Winstead is Partner and Chief Experience Officer at Cline Design Associates. His work bridges physical space, leadership, and brand—helping firms design experiences that align with values and drive long-term growth.

Resources
 Cline

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