Below the Surface

#47 The EIANZ

Fri, 28 Aug 2026 13:00:00 +1000

Who keeps environmental professionals honest, and what happens when they get it wrong?

Gunnar and James open with a deceptively simple question: would you take a guaranteed $50,000 or risk it on a coin toss for $1 million? Their answers lead to a revealing conversation about risk, certainty, running a business and how personal circumstances shape financial decisions.

Then the episode switches to newly appointed EIANZ President Fiona Gainsford about the growing influence of professional certification in the environmental industry. A frank discussion about professionalism, accountability and who sets the standards for the environmental industry.

They discuss ethics, complaints and disciplinary action, conflicts of interest, misuse of certification seals, and whether the CEnvP system now holds considerable power over environmental professionals and their careers.

They also push Fiona on some pointed questions: why the EIANZ stayed quiet during the asbestos in mulch saga, whether certification seals are vulnerable to misuse, how conflicts of interest are handled in practice, and whether an unpaid volunteer board should hold this much sway over people's livelihoods.

BBC Audio | More or Less | Would you take £50,000 or a 50/50 chance of £1m?

Proposed AS ISO 18400-106 Soil Quality – Sampling

Tony Albert - Wikipedia

Tony Albert: Not a Souvenir | MCA Australia

www.eianz.org

www.cenvp.org

EIANZ peer review guidelines

Episode #14 The Honest Truth

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

#46 The Career Path

Fri, 17 Jul 2026 13:00:00 +1000

What does a career in the environmental industry actually look like, and how do you know when it is time for a change? That change can range from minor adjustment in your life and your expectations and goals to a big one like changing jobs or even careers altogether.

Gunnar and Hammond are joined by career coach Kellie Guenther to discuss career pathways, professional development, leadership, mentoring and workplace culture.

They also explore the pressures facing young professionals, why the first job can shape an entire career, and why working in the environmental industry may involve fewer dolphins and butterflies than expected.

Links:

EPA Updates: Regulatory, licensing, policy and legislative updates | EPA

PFAS Position Statement

Asbestos in Recovered Fines

EPA Response to OCSE paper

Free Asbestos Waste Disposal for households

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#45 The Disclaimer

Fri, 26 Jun 2026 13:00:00 +1000

Disclaimers in our reports. Useless fluff or necessary ass covering?

Who better to discuss this than Sarah Mansfield (LinkedIn) who is returning to Below the Surface and almost immediately raises the bar for all future lawyer and engineer jokes. Sarah, Gunnar and Hammond tackle P&O cruise insults, ALGA glory, puppies, and why a useful “How to Read This Report” section may be better than hiding AI created legal fog at the back.

Other subjects: Report reliance, executive summaries, confused clients, angry clients, and why “nobody other than the Client can rely on this report” is not quite the magic spell consultants hope it is (spoiler: don't bother with that statement).

Sarah's first appearance on BTS

HWLE Lawyers

H2coco poppers pulled from Woolies shelves due to plastic straws - Inside Waste

Coal companies to reap billions more in taxpayer diesel subsidies as Labor approves new mining

The episode was recorded on 16 June 2026

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#44 The Duplicate Pushback

Fri, 05 Jun 2026 13:00:00 +1000

In Episode #30 The Duplicate, Gunnar famously declared that duplicate soil samples in heterogeneous fill are useless. Risk assessor Belle Casement of Terravale Consulting heard the episode… and decided Gunnar needed correcting. 😲

In this nerd-out episode, they discuss QA/QC, dodgy duplicates, lab uncertainty, conservative risk assessments, and whether the typical QC sections in contaminated land reports are actually science or just expensive pseudo scientific fluff we do to please regulators.

Gunnar briefly ponders writing his own version of the ASC NEPM and re-introduces the term Quality Theatre in hope of getting it officially introduced into the Miriam Webster next year.

They also get into lead, vapours, CRM samples, rinsates, trip blanks and upper confidence limits, with a completely unnecessary but somehow relevant detour into Henry VIII and Scientology. Nobody backs down, several sacred cows get kicked over, while Hammond tries hard to keep the two fighters apart and sometimes even dares to enter the ring himself.

BTS Episode #30: The Duplicate - the OG duplicate episode

BTS Episode #11: he Sampling Evolution - Ross McFarland

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#43 The Negotiator

Fri, 15 May 2026 13:00:00 +1000

Hammond relives his time as a representative for Australia in international biodiversity negotiations at COP13 of the Convention on Biological Diversity. But before that a few updates, a hint for auditors and Gunnar almost completely loses it while talking about one of the latest EPA announcements leading to a most epic Gu-rant.

Links:

Clarence Coal mine penalty

Constitutional heads of power.

'Getting to Yes'.

Never Split the Difference.

Rapport - The Four Ways to Read People.

Sam Harris | #132 - Freeing the Hostages with Chris Voss

Professional AS Soils Short Courses - Southern Cross University

Recorded on 2 April 2026

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#42 The Basics: Microplastics

Fri, 24 Apr 2026 13:00:00 +1000

Microplastics: The Invisible Problem (or is it?)

Brooke Kelly from Reditus joins Gunnar and James to unpack microplastics. From penguin carcasses and seal scat (that's science code for poo) to human exposure, they explore where microplastics come from, how they are measured, and why they are everywhere. There is a lot of hype surrounding microplastics and some evidence of ecological harm exists, but human health impacts remain largely observational. They tackle analytical limitations, media-driven panic versus scientific uncertainty, and the parallels with PFAS.

The episode lands on a pragmatic note: while the science evolves, a precautionary approach and simple exposure reduction strategies are worth considering.

Links from the episode:

NEJM: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2309822

https://shirtloadsofscience.libsyn.com/prof-michaela-lucas-465

Broadscale microplastic assessment | EPA

https://aahms.org/publications/microplastics-precaution-and-biomonitoring-needed/

https://theconversation.com/scientists-may-be-overestimating-the-amount-of-microplastics-in-the-environment-and-the-culprit-is-lab-gloves-258545

Below the Surface: The PFAS Health Advice

Recorded on 17 April 2026

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#41 The AI Revolution

Thu, 02 Apr 2026 13:00:00 +1100

Artificial intelligence has gone from curiosity to daily tool almost overnight.

In this episode, Gunnar and James sit down with AI consultant Alex Rankin who spent over 25 years in senior roles across the Australian Public Service before turning her focus to helping environmental consultancies figure out where AI actually fits into their workflows. Together they cut through the hype and talk about what AI can actually do for environmental professionals right now.

In this episode:

What LLMs, generative AI, agentic AI, and AGI actually mean, and which ones matter for your practice right now
Why AI is better thought of as a fast intern than a consultant (for now)
What environmental consultants are actually using AI for (and what they're still struggling with)
The hallucination problem (Gunnar calls it lying) and the cross-checking trick that helps
How to train an AI tool and what "training" actually means in practice
A practical framework for dipping a toe in without blowing your budget or your deadline
Why Claude, ChatGPT, and Gemini are not interchangeable and when to use which

This episode was recorded on 6 March 2026.

Book a meeting with Alex: https://meetings-ap1.hubspot.com/a/driftwood-discovery

ALGA launches Special Interest Group for AI

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#40 The Risk Assessment

Fri, 13 Mar 2026 13:00:00 +1100

If you've ever stared at a lab result that exceeds your NEPM HIL and wondered "okay, but what does this actually mean?". This one's for you.

Gunnar and James sit down with Dr Kylie Dodd, environmental toxicologist and risk assessor at GHD, to get into the science behind the numbers that so many of us lean on without fully understanding where they come from. Kylie has a great way of making this stuff click, and the conversation goes places that are genuinely useful for day-to-day practice.

They get into why Tier 1 screening levels are built to be conservative by design, why an exceedance doesn't automatically mean you need to remediate, and what it looks like to think a bit deeper, what they're calling "Tier 1.5 Risk Assessment — without needing to be a fully-fledged risk assessor yourself.

A big chunk of the conversation is about the practical stuff: how to get more out of your conceptual site model (CSM), how to think about exposure pathways and bioaccessibility, and how realistic site use should dictate the way you interpret results. Some of those small shifts in thinking can make a real difference to the recommendations you're putting forward.

They also get into how risk assessments hold up under regulator scrutiny, when an environmental management plan is actually the right tool, and what data decisions early in a project can save a risk assessor a lot of headaches later.

Fair warning: this episode won't make you a risk assessor. But it might change how you think about what those numbers are really telling you — and what you do next.

Links:

ASC NEPM Toolbox

Episode 38 The Bioavailability

Recorded on 12 Feb 2026

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#39 The Big ASS Questions

Fri, 20 Feb 2026 13:00:00 +1100

A deeper dive into Acid Sulfate Soils. In a slightly QLD centric episode, Gunnar and James are joined by all three main authors of the QLD ASS Management Guidelines, widely regarded as the best ASS guidelines in the world.

Sue-Ellen Dear is a Senior Land Resource Officer with the QLD Department of Natural Resources and Mines and has contributed to acid sulfate soil policy and guidance since 1996. She is lead author of the QLD ASS Management Guidelines.

Kristie Williams has spent nearly 25 years in the QLD government soils team, working across ASS, salinity, erosion and land resource assessment. She has authored technical reports, contributed to regulations and assessed developments from small works to major canal estates.

Dr Angus McElnea Angus developed the SPOCAS method, contributed to laboratory guidelines, and co-authored Australian (AS 4969) and international (ISO 14388) standards. He is a NATA technical assessor, worked on the East Trinity remediation project, and is currently involved in greenhouse gas and fertiliser efficiency research.

They unpack how acid sulfate soils form and what really happens when these soils are disturbed. They cover pyrite formation, potential vs actual acid sulfate soils and the “trinity of acidities” and then discuss real-world management challenges.

They put forward avoidance of disturbing ASS as the first priority, the realities of liming and mixing on treatment pads, the controversy around acid neutralising capacity, and why incubation testing matters. They talk about strategic reburial, the pros and cons of centralised treatment facilities, the carbon cost of treating ASS, and the industry’s tendency toward conservative safety factors (with a small Gu-rant - they are always audience favourites so we hear)

The episode finishes with validation testing, safe reuse of treated soils and the future of professional certification through the Registered Soil Practitioner scheme.

If you work in contaminated land, coastal development, infrastructure or groundwater, this episode is essential listening.

Links:

BTS #23: The Basics: Acid Sulfate Soil

Legislation and policies for ASS management in Qld

ASS guidance material

Retained Acidity Technical Note

SNAS correction by NATA

Gunnar loves ASS

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#38 The Bioavailability

Fri, 30 Jan 2026 13:00:00 +1100

How much of any given contaminant is actually taken up into human bodies?

If we think about it, that is one of the single most important things to consider as an environmental consultant when reporting on a site's contamination status, yet it is not something that is very often done. Gunnar and James are yet again soaring with an industry eagle as they set out to get better at that very aspect of consulting.

They chat with Dr Albert Juhasz, a Research Professor at the Future Industries Institute, internationally recognised for cross-disciplinary research on contaminant bioavailability and human health exposure. He has led development of one of the world’s largest contaminant bioavailability databases and advanced in vitro methods now applied at more than 100 contaminated sites across Australia.

His work has informed national and international exposure assessment policy, including the ASC NEPM and EnHealth Guidelines, and influenced regulatory guidance in the US, Canada and New Zealand. Albert is a senior journal editor, WHO consultant, contaminated-site auditor adviser, and a highly cited researcher (H-index 37).

The episode was recorded on 7 November 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#37 The 2025 Reflection

Fri, 19 Dec 2025 13:00:00 +1100

The 2025 Year in Review (That Wasn’t Supposed to Happen)

What started as a neat 15-minute intro quietly turned into a full end-of-year wrap-up. Classic Below the Surface. Gunnar and James get side-tracked almost immediately and eventually realise they have recorded the accidental 2025 BTS year in review. They cover listener feedback, behind-the-scenes stats, favourite episodes and a special mention for Sandgate.

Personal obsessions make an appearance, with both sharing their top five podcasts of the year. Strong opinions, minimal overlap, and proof that podcast hosts mostly listen to other podcasts.

On the technical front, Gunnar explains why the new AS 5370 feels like a step backwards, followed by a familiar rant on mandatory low-speed EV noise in Australia. EVs also feature heavily, including the claim that at least 11 new electric vehicles have hit Sydney roads thanks to a BTS episode.

The EPA gets its own moment, with discussion of recent turmoil, announcements that feel straight out of Utopia, and Gunnar’s practical solution to the EPA’s budget problems. They finish with updates on Resource Recovery Orders, the new ASS RRO, and thoughts on a possible National EPA.

Unplanned, slightly chaotic, and very on brand. A fitting way to wrap up 2025.

Links:

Gunnar's Top 5 Podcasts

The Tennis Podcast

Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

Andy Roddick's Served Podcast

The Michael Shermer Show

Joe Rogan (his interview with Lance Armstrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfSdPz1WtA)

All the other podcasts Gunnar subscribes to in one handy link

James' favourites

The Imperfects Podcast

Two Broke Watch Snobs

Democracy Sausage with Mark Kenny | Australian Studies Institute

The Rights to Ricky Sanchez - A podcast about the Philadelphia 76ers

The Art of Manliness

This BTS Episode was recorded on 12 December 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#36 The Client - TMA

Fri, 28 Nov 2025 13:00:00 +1100

What it's really like to be regulated?

Regulators, take note - this one’s for you.

We are shining the light on the third corner of the Regulator – Consultant – Client relationship: the Client.

What’s it really like to be on the receiving end of regulation? Do operators of licensed facilities feel supported … or just scrutinised? Are those hefty licence fees worth it? And is there a fair playing field between the licensed and the “let’s-pretend-we-don’t-need-a-licence” crowd?

Of course, it’s not all about the regulators, consultants, you’ll want to listen too.
What do clients actually expect from us? What builds trust, and what breaks it?

To kick off this new series, Gunnar and James sit down with Anthony Alpen, Founder and CEO of Tank Management Australia (TMA). As the head of an IBC (Intermediate Bulk Container) reconditioning company, working under a strict EPL, Anthony knows first-hand what it means to navigate the regulatory maze.

Sure, it sounds a bit dry on paper, but, as always, Gunnar and James find the sweet spot between serious insights and a few good laughs. It’s smart, it’s honest, and it’s the kind of chat that’ll make both regulators and consultants think twice (in a good way).

The episode was recorded on 10 October 2025.

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#35 The PFAS Heath Advice

Fri, 07 Nov 2025 13:00:00 +1100

The NSW Health PFAS Advice includes quite some statements:

“The health effects of PFAS appear to be small.”
“… there was definite evidence of increased psychological distress in … exposed communities, evidence for other adverse health outcomes from this study was limited.”
“Interventions that reduce blood PFAS are of uncertain benefit and may cause harm.”

These comments seem at odds with much of the mainstream media's presentation around PFAS. Or even the recently drastically reduced drinking water guidelines or Version 3 of the National Environmental Management Plan (NEMP) for PFAS. On top of that, the statements are unusually direct for a government public health communication, which made us curious to understand how NSW Health had arrived at these conclusions.

To find out, Gunnar and James reached out to NSW Health. Their media team was quick to respond and connected them with two members of the expert advisory panel:

Dr Claire Hooker – Associate Professor, Health Humanities and Arts and Health, Sydney Health Ethics
Prof Martyn Kirk – National Centre for Epidemiology and Population Health, Australian National University

Speaking with these distinguished researchers was a privilege. Despite being a little star-struck, Gunnar and James kept their cool and recorded one of their most insightful conversations to date.

This episode was recorded on 30 September 2025 and it is dense with evidence, reasoning, and nuance - it’s well worth your full attention.

Southern Cross University Acid Sulfate Soil Course

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#34 The Stormwater Stirrer

Fri, 17 Oct 2025 13:00:00 +1100

Gunnar (without James this time) gives it a go to get to the bottom of the very basics of what we need to think of around stormwater on a site. There are few better suited to talk about the subject than our guest Mircea Stancu, the founder of Cleanstormwater.

Mircea is a civil engineer, software engineer and, you guessed it, an expert in anything related to stormwater. He is also quite a flamboyant guest and he and Gunnar managed to put together a show case of the very best of (what Gunnar at least calls) attractive European accents.

The two of them briefly talk about a dispute between Mircea and Melbourne Water, played out publicly on LinkedIn. If you feel like a little bit of entertainment, grab your popcorn and have a look at these videos:

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7185803882801848320

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7209037421026369536

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7215890816471302146

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7213783068518596609

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7211555577947127808

https://www.linkedin.com/embed/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:7261621640537481216

https://www.cleanstormwater.com.au/

https://au.linkedin.com/in/mircea-stancu-193048108

Southern Cross University Acid Sulfate Soil Course

The episode was recorded on 5 June 2025.

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#33 The Waste Class Blues

Fri, 26 Sep 2025 13:00:00 +1000

James K (James Karagiannis) has personally completed a stack of waste classifications. And in addition, he has reviewed somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 reports written by other consultants for our clients. That gives him a rare, panoramic view of what great looks like … and what misses the mark.

Gunnar and Hammond, James Hammond, sit down with him to unpack what he sees when reviewing these reports.

The original plan was to listen to James K. But with Gunnar’s well-known habit of let’s say, sharing his thoughts, and Hammond’s nerdy knowledge in resource recovery and compliance, there may have been a little more talking than listening at times.

Still, we think you’ll enjoy the conversation, have a few laugh and maybe even pick up a few tips to sharpen your own waste classification skills. Enjoy!

The episode was recorded on 11 September 2025.

Links mentioned in the episode:

Electric Vehicles are allowed to use transit lanes in NSW

NSW Health Expert Advisory Panel on PFAS

Our interview with NSW Health Panel members on the PFAS Health Advice

Nightcrawler on Netflix

Episode with Linda Apthorpe on asbestos in soils analysis

Episode with Pierina Otness on how to sample for asbestos in soil on a site

Episode with Ross McFarland about sampling and Decision Units

Gunnar's method of re-running samples accountably

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#32 The EPA CEO

Fri, 05 Sep 2025 13:00:00 +1000

Tony Chappel, the CEO of the NSW EPA, is our guest today, so we are definitely back with a bang after the summer holidays.

Gunnar and James are (surprisingly!) well-prepared and keep the conversation on track as they dive into Tony’s journey to leading the EPA, his early priorities, the role of politics in environmental regulation, and the importance of deep listening in leadership. They explore everything from the OCSE paper and the EPA's potential collaboration with industry bodies, to the tricky disconnect between waste and contaminated sites, the zero-tolerance stance on asbestos in waste, updates to the ASC NEPM, and the growing pressures on landfill capacity.

And yes, Gunnar did try for a get-out-of-jail-free card from Tony… but no luck this time (nice try, though)!

Three experts, one great conversation, and a rare look into the leadership and direction of the NSW EPA. This is definitely one episode you won’t want to miss.

Links mentioned:
NSW Health Expert Advisory Panel on PFAS

Our Interview with NSW Health Panel Members about this advice (recorded a few weeks after this episode went live)

Draft ASS Order and Exemption

Recorded on 19 August 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#31 The Half Price EV

Fri, 13 Jun 2025 13:00:00 +1000

Electric Vehicles are basically half price in Australia right now, thanks to some little-known government incentives. Gunnar and James decided it was the perfect time to talk… tax. Yes, tax. And you thought resource recovery was a boring subject, right?

But before you judge, listen to this episodes. Gunnar and James have brought in the big guns: chartered accountant Paul Mills (paulybmills at gmail.com).

It really sounds like the beginning of a bad joke: Two engineers and an accountant meet for a podcast ...

Somehow yet again they pull it off, though. This episode is full of genuinely valuable information. Paul explains what Fringe Benefits Tax (FBT) actually is, who pays it, and whether your lease company or car dealers are lying to you with their 'tax advice' (spoiler: probably). They also unpack the confusing mess that is the difference between a car loan, a lease, and a novated lease.

And most importantly: The kicker is that EVs (full EVs, not wannabe EV hybrids) are FBT exempt in Australia. If you do it right, that knocks off around 50% off the prices of buying an EV. How? You gotta listen to find out.

But remember: While Paul is brilliant, this podcast is still mainly about contaminated sites and resource recovery (some call it dirt and rubbish). So don’t go making financial decisions based on what you heard here without getting your own advice.

Recorded on 11 June 2025 (just before EOFY!)

Link to the EPA announcement regarding NEMP 3

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#30 The Duplicate

Fri, 23 May 2025 13:00:00 +1000

Gunnar claims almost all duplicates we take serve close to no purpose. If you want to know why, have a listen and be entertained and informed at the same time.

The OGs are back together in this episode, and quite an unusual one it is. This times it is James who goes on a few rants, quite to Gunnar's amusement. Of course, Gunnar has a few things to say as well and he will definitively ruffle some feathers with this episode.

We start off with playing Wikileaks by talking about a letter the EPA sent to all auditors regarding the staged introduction of V3 of the PFAS National Environmental Management Plan (NEMP) and also a clarification regarding PFAS and the Duty to Report. (Plug to our previous Episode #25 The Duty to Report).

Then Gunnar and James hash out some ideas on duplicates, high RPDs, re-running of samples, basic statistics, experimental setups in science and why being 'conservative' might not be delivering the results you think it is.

Episodes we talk about:

#29 The New AS5370 Standard with Linda Apthorpe

#25 The Duty to Report with Elizabeth Wild.

#11 The Sampling Evolution with Ross McFarland

Links:

EPA regulatory updates

Deana Crumbling

Security Theatre - Wikipedia

This episode was recorded on 17 May 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#29 The New AS5370 Standard

Fri, 02 May 2025 13:00:00 +1000

Attention Asbestos in Soils Specialists, there is a new kid in town. The Australian Standard 4964-2004 Method for the qualitative identification of asbestos in bulk samples has been superseded with a new AS 5370.

What's different? What's better, what's worse? Why are we reporting below the detection and below the reporting limit? Is NATA on board with it? What do all those different sub-categories the laboratories report actually mean?

Gunnar is talking to Linda Apthorpe, a Certified Occupational Hygienist and Fellow of the Australian Institute of Occupational Hygienists (AIOH). Linda is Associate Principal Occupational Hygienist at Hibbs in Sydney, a Lecturer at the University of Wollongong, author of multiple scientific papers and speaker at a variety of professional development seminars. There are very few who are better suited to talk about this subject, especially since Linda was also on the panel of people who developed the new Standard.

James was unfortunately not there to keep Gunnar in check, and you guessed it, that resulted in not one, not two, but at least three (in)famous Gu-Rants in this episode. Some would say that alone makes this episode compulsory listening for anybody in the industry.

Episodes mentioned:

#2 The Mulchgate

#11 The Sampling Evolution

#28 The OCSE Odyssey

The episode was recorded on 11 April 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#28 The OCSE Odyssey

Fri, 11 Apr 2025 13:00:00 +1000

The Office of Chief Scientist and Engineer (OCSE) has issued recommendations concerning asbestos in waste and soil. Sarah Mansfield, Special Counsel (and environmental law superstar) at Norton Rose Fulbright, breaks down the key points and their legal implications.

Given the focus on the PoEO Act and its handling of asbestos, you'd expect at least one of our hosts to go off the rails with a classic, epic rant. But, against all odds, age, wisdom, and a dash of professionalism took the reins—so much so that this episode doesn’t even come close to earning the 'explicit' rating it sometimes gets on various platforms.

Gunnar's composure alone is a highlight (though he admits to biting his tongue to the point of unhealthiness!). Add to that the invaluable insights from James and Sarah, and you've got an episode well worth your time. We loved making it as always, and we hope you enjoy every moment.

Leave a review or drop us a message. We thrive on connecting with our listeners!

Upcoming ALGA event 1 May 2025. Sara is one of the presenters: Sydney Branch Event - OCSE Report: Management of Asbestos in Recovered Fines and Recovered Materials for Beneficial Reuse in NSW | ALGA

This episode was recorded on 25 March 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#27 The Chronicles of an Auditor

Fri, 21 Mar 2025 13:00:00 +1100

Rod Harwood - do we need to say anything else?

There are few who have had more influence on our industry and who have contributed more than Rod. Gunnar had a chat with Rod and while they reminisce about 'the good old days', Rod sprinkles in some anecdotes of his impressive career and shares gems of his incredible knowledge as an engineer and a business man.

James was unfortunately unavailable (you know, work and stuff ...), but we promise, this is one everybody in our industry will enjoy.

BTS Episode mentioned: The Duty to Report

The episode was recorded on 7 March 2025.

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#26 The Quickie

Fri, 28 Feb 2025 13:00:00 +1100

Gunnar and James take a dive into all sorts of events that have happened in the past few weeks.

1 - The EIANZ announces the punishment of a member.

2 - A $30,000 fine issued by a Council

3 - MASSIVE NEWS: The Office of the Chief Scientist and Engineer has released a recommendation to the NSW Government regarding the "Management of asbestos in recovered fines and recovered materials ...". Gunnar and James present the key points and almost find reasons to celebrate.

We start off with an answer to the question, why there are so many Ampol and Caltex service stations on the contaminated land register. Gunnar's long time friend Simon Caples knows exactly why and he provides a rather amusing and amazing explanation. Flashback to the last episode 'The Duty to Report'.

Other BTS Episodes mentioned:

#14 The Honest Truth - Re the EIANZ Code of Ethics

#8 The Power Grab - Re the new fines in the PoEO Act

#9 The Amazing Pierina - Re asbestos in soil assessments

This episode was recorded on 25 February 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#25 The Duty to Report

Fri, 14 Feb 2025 13:00:00 +1100

The Duty To Report may seem like a peculiar law in our industry, yet it's just another one of the many quirky regulations that shape our environmental consulting world. As such, it was begging to be turned into a podcast episode. In fact, Gunnar and James are even joking about selling movie rights to this one—so send your offers quickly!

In this episode, Gunnar and James sit down with Elizabeth Wild, a distinguished Partner at Jones Day, to unpack the nuances of this obligation. They delve into the specifics of who is required to report, what must be reported, and under what circumstances. They also discuss the pros and cons of playing it safe when you're in the grey zone.

Plus, if you've ever wondered what it’s like to stay in the Ice Hotel in Sweden (yes, a hotel made entirely out of ice), Elizabeth offers a perspective that goes beyond the picture-perfect scenes on Instagram. Who knew our podcast would also serve as a travel review platform? – Enjoy!

The episode was recorded on 24 January 2025

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#24 The Recruiter

Fri, 31 Jan 2025 13:00:00 +1100

Daniel James is someone worth knowing when you are working in our industry. Is he a contaminated sites or resource recovery leader like many of our other guests? No, but he will put you in touch with such experts if you are looking to employ one.

His decade long experience as a specialised environmental recruiter gives him a unique insight into the workings behind the scenes of our industry. He shares his experience, talks about how he sees our industry performing in 2025, and also gives tips on how to make your next step in your career. Whether you are about to graduate or you are a seasoned environmental Principal, you should not miss this episode.

Recording date: 22 November 2024

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#23 The Basics: Acid Sulfate Soils

Fri, 20 Dec 2024 13:00:00 +1100

Acid Sulfate Soils are a tricky subject. The second episode of our "The Basics" series is all about the ASS (oh this acronym is just endlessly amusing, isn't it?). Gunnar and James' guest is Laurie Fox, one of the most recognised and distinguished ASS experts not only in Australia, but globally. Aside from doing fantastic assessment and ASS management work on mind bogglingly big projects himself, Laurie is also committed to improving our industry's understanding of these soils.

This improvement pathway he is on involves not only industry talks like this one, but also a tireless commitment to liaison with and education of various regulators. People like Laurie are a rare breed, one that is vitally important to have in our industry. It is people like him who improve all of us.

This episode was recorded on 29 November 2024.

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#22 The Basics: Planning

Fri, 06 Dec 2024 13:00:00 +1100

Everything you always wanted to know about planning, but were afraid to ask. If you don't get that movie reference, don't worry, it just means you are much younger than Gunnar, that's all.

We are starting a new series called The Basics and we are kicking it off with town planning as the subject. Henry Burnett of DFP Planning is our expert guest. Henry and James go back many years and aside from discussing what town planning is all about, they relive their common past as sales clerks at an outdoor and camping chain. Gunnar sits mostly on the sidelines and only briefly shows up now and then, all the more reasons to listen in. Enjoy becoming a planning expert.

Recorded on 22 Nov 2024.

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#21 The Forever Plates

Fri, 22 Nov 2024 13:00:00 +1100

Can eco-friendly plates and food containers made from sugarcane mulch sneak in some hidden PFAS? And can that PFAS end up in your compost, and eventually your garden soil? Cara Roberts and David Springer did the dirty work (literally) to find out. Gunnar and James couldn't wait for them to come onto the podcast and present the scoop. Tune in to hear what they uncovered!

Oh, and this time there's no "Gunnar's gone rogue" segment. In fact, he's eating a slice of humble pie after a listener fact-checked him on one of his recent rants. Oops! After that little reality check, they tidy up a few loose ends and jump straight into the interview. Don't miss it!

This episode was recorded on 4 November 2024.

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#20 The Loophole

Fri, 08 Nov 2024 13:00:00 +1100

Grey Areas and Loopholes – Where to Draw the Line? This episode dives into the murky waters of our industry's "grey areas", or, if we are re being honest, loopholes. From VENM (Virgin Excavated Natural Material) issues to Council demands for auditors in a gotcha move, to James's creative methods for getting trial waste recycling facilities approved, and even the use of silica gel to clean up tank pit samples - these are some of the fine lines or thin ice areas we navigate in the environmental consulting world.

Before Gunnar and James unpack their take on which loopholes are fair game and which ones in their opinion cross the line, they handle some podcast housekeeping, read out a listener comment, and share big news: the NSW EPA has withdrawn their 2022 asbestos position paper!

And, because no episode is complete without a "Gunnar moment," he takes us back to a memorable prenatal class incident. In typical Gunnar style, he set things straight, though, admittedly, even he now wonders whether going full Gunnarish was, well, entirely necessary. Enjoy the episode!

This is the link to the EPA article announcing the asbestos news.

The episode was recorded on 18 October 2024

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#19 The Inventor

Fri, 25 Oct 2024 13:00:00 +1100

In a fictitious world where electricity reigns supreme, Gunnar has "invented" a revolutionary engine that uses ... wait for it ... petrol! That’s right, in this universe, electric engines are the norm, and Gunnar is pitching this wild idea of a new type of engine to a venture capitalist, skilfully played by James.

We’re taking a detour from our usual lineup of site contamination, waste streams, asbestos scares, and blood lead levels. Instead, Gunnar and James are stepping into the world of dramatic fiction, or at least, are attempting to. They’re acting out a "screenplay," minus the screens, with Gunnar taking full responsibility for the writing (and any questionable humour). It’s all in good fun, so let’s embrace the satire and enjoy the ride! Gunnar and James certainly had a blast recording it!

But before the “acting” begins, the two go on a trip down memory lane with a skydiving tale straight out of Top Gun. Depending on who you ask, it was either hilariously entertaining or a borderline disaster that nearly took out everyone nearby. You decide, either way, it’s unforgettable.

Recorded on 18 October 2024, this episode is one for the books!

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#18 The Remedial Action Assessment

Fri, 11 Oct 2024 13:00:00 +1100

A re-think of the classic Preliminary Site Assessment => Detailed Site Assessment => Remedial Action Plan scenario. Guest Andrew Kohlrusch, EPA Auditor and contaminated sites expert extraordinaire, joins Gunnar on an excursion to explore a more bespoke way to assess contaminated sites from the initial stages to the final remediation report.

Of course the two veer off into their private lives first and discuss a Billy Joel Maddison Square Garden concert, whether dinner with David Bowie or Clint Eastwood would be more interesting than chatting with Louis Theroux and how working 'just two days a week' on a certain project mostly really means you will be working 7 days a week on that project and everything else that is going on.

There is a lot in this episode that entertains and even more that informs. Listen in, you will not regret it.

The episode was recorded on 2 October 2024.

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#17 The Blueprint

Fri, 27 Sep 2024 13:00:00 +1000

Australia's landscapes are in serious need of an injection of TLC (Tender Loving Care, not some dyslexic chlorinated hydrocarbon). TLC and a bit of money. $7.3 Billion per year over 10 years to be more precise, according to a recent report published by The Wentworth Group.

Our Guest is The Wentworth Group's Prof Mike Grundy, a former Research Director, Soil and Landscapes with CSIRO, and an Adjunct Professor with the University of Sydney. We discuss what is currently going wrong with Australia's landscapes, what is needed and how can this all be financed.

This podcast is all James' baby, he has read the entire report and the article in The Conversation. James and Mike are all over the subject, Gunnar is unusually quiet but does manage to inject a few pessimistic (he calls them "realistic") points from the sidelines towards the end.

The episode starts with the usual banter between out two hosts. One highlight is that Gunnar shows what he and Donald Trump have in common. Is it a bad hairstyle, a fake tan or maybe even narcissism? Listen in and you will find out.

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#16 The Sparrow in the Lead Mine

Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:00:00 +1000

Measure lead levels in blood of house sparrows and accurately predict lead blood levels in children in that town. No way? Absolutely YES WAY!

That is exactly what Prof Simon Griffith with his PhD candidate Max Gillings have achieved in one of their recent papers.

From the outside it is all so easy. Go to an area with known high lead impact (towns like Broken Hill or Mt Isa come to mind), catch a few hundred sparrows, take a blood sample from each sparrow (non-destructively by the way), analyse the blood for lead (and all sort of other markers) and overlay the data to blood lead levels in children living in those areas that the sparrows frequent.

Establish that there is a correlation and explain why there is one as well. Then use that data to predict children's blood lead levels in areas where there is no good heath monitoring available. Publish the research and take a bow!

It is fascinating research, presented by equally fascinating scientists in a beautiful paper. Gunnar and James were both glued to Prof Griffith's lips and we are sure, so will you.

Link to the paper: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.4c00946

Simon Griffith links:
https://griffithecology.com/

https://researchers.mq.edu.au/en/persons/simon-griffith

https://au.linkedin.com/in/simon-griffith-07830719

Max Gillings
https://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=yIHdN_0AAAAJ&hl=en

https://researchers.mq.edu.au/en/persons/max-mclennan-gillings

This episode was recorded on 26 July 2024

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#15 The STEMinist

Fri, 30 Aug 2024 13:00:00 +1000

How can young (female) professionals tackle the flood of knowledge they must acquire in a fast-paced consulting environment while at the same time having to deal with sometimes perceived but too often real disapproval by established good old boys in meetings or on construction sites? How can you tackle the ever niggling self-doubt? How can you become more like the you you want yourself to be?

Hailey Spry from Easterly Point Environmental, a DESI (that’s Queensland’s EPA) Accredited Contaminated Site Auditor and well established and respected expert in the environmental consulting scene, was generous enough to give us some of her rather expensive time and chat about women in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics). Gunnar and James are handing over hosting duties to two young and upcoming environmental stars for this episode.

Sophia Bourke is a Senior Environmental Consultant and despite her young age (don't let the ‘senior’ title fool you) forms the corner stone of the Environmental Impact Assessment Team at 4Pillars Environmental Consulting. Co-host is Laura Kent, an Environmental Consultant working with Sophia, specialising in Environmental Compliance and Management.

The three of them have an interesting chat about what it is like to be a young professional in a technical field and in an industry that is traditionally rather male dominated.

James took a break during this episode and refreshingly, Gunnar talks very little. Now, that alone should make it worth listening in!

This episode was recorded on 9 August 2024.

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#14 The Honest Truth

Fri, 16 Aug 2024 13:00:00 +1000

The EPA names and shames a consultancy for allegedly falsifying reports. Meanwhile clients are beginning to use legal privilege as a strategy to avoid potential subpoenas — just as we anticipated in The Power Grab.

On a positive note, thanks to The Policy Predicament, the EPA has made a change to their website, now featuring all policy and regulatory updates in one easily accessible location (yay!). Kudos to the EPA!

Gunnar and James take the opportunity to talk about ethics, morals and integrity in our industry. They discuss the EIANZ's Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct, share their approaches to navigating ethical and moral challenges, and offer suggestions on how we might be able to improve our industry's standards.

As usual, none of this sounds all that exciting. But, as usual, the episode delivers more excitement than expected. Tune in, you will come out the other end a way better person.

The episode was recorded on 2 August 2024

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#13 The Train Wreck

Fri, 02 Aug 2024 13:00:00 +1000

We are thrilled to host Andrew Doig from the Australian Sustainable Business Group, who brings a wealth of knowledge on waste services and legislative review. Andrew guides us through the labyrinth of waste management and landfill approval, focusing on the pressing issues in New South Wales. From the Lucas Heights extension to the Woodlawn mine approval, we dissect the challenges of expanding waste facilities amid the pervasive NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) mentality. Learn the crucial differences between putrescible and non-putrescible waste and grasp why Sydney's landfill capacity is on a ticking clock set to expire by 2028.

Andrew also sheds light on the future of waste management in New South Wales. We explore viable solutions such as regional landfills and rail transport, stressing the urgent need for innovative strategies and government intervention. Wrapping up, we briefly touch on the promising frontier of energy-to-waste technologies, hinting at more riveting discussions to come. Don't miss out on this episode packed with expert insights and potential solutions for a sustainable future.

This episode was recorded on 17 May 2024

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#12 The RRO Rewrite?

Fri, 19 Jul 2024 13:00:00 +1000

There are few people who know more about the Resource Recovery Framework than this episode’s guest, Jason Scarborough. Jason had worked with the NSW EPA for almost 20 years where amongst other things, he was involved in the development and implementation of the initial Resource Recovery Framework. Four years ago he founded JS Regulatory Services.

That framework has undergone a number of independent reviews and many recommendations have been made. Implementation of those recommendations is still lagging way behind schedule.

Gunnar and James chat with Jason about how the framework has come into existence, what changes have been made and what changes should be made. Jason shares fascinating insight into his time at the EPA and his even more fascinating suggestion on how to revolutionise the handling of waste in NSW.

Links:

Open for comment on asbestos management: https://www.chiefscientist.nsw.gov.au/independent-reports/asbestos-management

Jason on LinkedIn https://au.linkedin.com/in/jason-scarborough-a28374112

This episode was recorded on 12 July 2024

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#11 The Sampling Evolution

Fri, 05 Jul 2024 13:00:00 +1000

This week’s guest is environmental consulting superstar, Ross McFarland. He shares his thoughts on whether samples we take are actually representative of the site conditions.

Is a 250 ml soil sample that is obtained with all our best intentions, a minute 5 g of which is then analysed, actually representative of a large area or of a large volume of soil? Have you ever stood in front of a massive stockpile of soil and wondered how in the world and from which part of the stockpile you will take samples

That are representative.
In numbers that don’t send your company broke.
Don't get you fired in the process.

Turns out that the environmental industry is not the only one grappling with the representativeness of their samples. In this episode we learn that the mining industry has a similar problem, and yet they have managed to develop methods that are demonstrably better at obtaining truly representative samples -- far more so than simply using grab samples as per AS4482 – the method the environmental industry seems to be so fond of.

Join us on a little dive into the science of soil sampling. There is a lot of food for thought in this episode. Ross was unbelievably well informed, impressive and absolutely fascinating, James was his usual charming inquisitive self and Gunnar was for a change surprisingly well behaved (for the most part). That alone would make it a must to listen to, don't you think?

Ross on LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/ross-mcfarland-9b740917

This episode was recorded on 18 June 2024.

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#10 The Waste Windfall

Fri, 21 Jun 2024 13:00:00 +1000

Get prosecuted by the EPA and found guilty, get fined several hundred thousand Dollars and make $1.5 Million profit out of that whole scenario.

If that sounds too much like fiction and Ocean's 11-ish, then listen into this episode. Many years ago James was involved in a big EPA investigation surrounding the Bowral Landfill.

Gunnar and James talk about

how James got involved in that investigation
what happens when you are a key witness in such a high flying case
how that affects you personally
how that affects you professionally
how that affects the brand of your company
what James learned from that (rather traumatising) experience
how he and the company came out of that stronger and better (so easy to say in hindsight)

It is an unusually serious subject that the two tackle this time, but they still manage to make it entertaining. As usual one might be tempted to say.

Here is the link to EPA's update and ruling on that case

Here is a link to the some photos of that landfill:

The episode was recorded over a few sessions in May 2024

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#9 The Amazing Pierina

Fri, 07 Jun 2024 13:00:00 +1000

Bond Villains, Broke Parents and Asbestos in Soils Assessments: A Wild Ride with Pierina Otness

Gunnar and James are back with another high-flying guest on their podcast! Somehow this episode feels very James Bond-ish.

Scene 1: The Asbestos Assessment Authority

Gunnar and James, sit down with none other than Pierina Otness - the undisputed authority on asbestos in soils (ASBINS) assessments.

Scene 2: James vs. James Bond

Gunnar feels that James needs an introduction worthy of 007.

Scene 3: Broke Parents Club

Pierina drops truth bombs: having kids is like investing in a black hole. Your wallet? Empty. Your sanity? Questionable. But hey, at least you’re broke together.

Scene 4: Research Papers and National Guidelines

The gang dives into research papers like treasure hunters. Turns out, the Western Australian guidelines on ASBINS were inspired by ancient scrolls hidden in a dusty library. But Pierina and her colleagues read them all, summarised them and produced a Bible-like guidance document that stands the test of time (and Gunnar is not impressed with the Bible comparison of course).

Scene 5: Pierina’s Masterclass

Consultants, listen up! Pierina spills the beans on how to ace an ASBINS assessment and Gunnar and James find it hard to become worthy Pierina disciples due to a lack of adequate training opportunities.

Scene 6: The Sydney Seduction

Gunnar, ever the smooth talker, tries to woo Pierina to move to NSW. Pierina somehow seems to be able to resist though. How weird.

Executive Summary: Pierina’s Awesomeness

Gunnar and James transform this seemingly mundane topic into an electrifying episode. It’s all thanks to Pierina’s awesomeness. Tune in - you won’t want to miss it!

Remember, dear listeners, asbestos might be hazardous, but this podcast? Pure gold.

Pierina Otness on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pierina-otness-a1604355

The episode was recorded on 31 May 2024

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#8 The Power Grab

Fri, 24 May 2024 12:00:00 +1000

The changed PoEO Act - way more than just increased penalties.

Gunnar and James found themselves in the company of not one, but two lawyers. While that usually is not a good thing no matter how you look at it, this time it’s not about courtrooms and objections, but it’s about environmental law. Darren Bick and Daniel Webster, Environmental and Planning Lawyers extraordinaire, joined the two for a chat about recent changes to the Protection of the Environment Operations Act.

Now, chatting about legal jargon might not scream "riveting podcast material," but hold your judgment (get it?). Believe us, Gunnar and James manage to wet even the driest of subjects with humour and sarcasm.

Hat tip also to Darren and Daniel who not only showed their deep subject knowledge and an even deeper sense of humour but also a cunning ability to handle Gunnar's as usual borderline inappropriate comments.

https://www.bicksteele.com.au/

https://au.linkedin.com/in/darrenbick

https://au.linkedin.com/in/daniel-webster-36299982

The Australian Sustainable Business Group seminar we mentioned: https://www.asbg.net.au/index.php/seminars/asbg-recorded-webinars/615-nsw-s-new-environmental-laws-its-implications-seminar-17-april-2024

This episode was recorded on 8 May 2024

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#7 The Hydrogen Mythbuster Part II

Fri, 10 May 2024 12:00:00 +1000

Part II of the interview with Canadian Chemical Processes Expert Paul Martin.
In case you have missed it, in Part I Paul talked us through the, rather inconvenient facts about hydrogen as a means to export energy for Australia and why that is a rather far fetched idea.

Here is a link to Part 1 of the interview.

In this episode Gunnar and James talk about:

The best uses for hydrogen
How we will best decarbonise our lives
We learn about carbon taxes and how Canada has implemented them quite successfully
Objections to carbon taxes
Electricity prices in Australia
What fuels we will use for land transport in the future
Also for air traffic and long distance shipping
Whether we will be able to use the existing gas infrastructure (terminals, pipelines, pumping stations etc.)

On top of all that Gunnar took the opportunity to show his terrible knowledge of fairly recent Australian political events. James came to the rescue.

Reach Paul at
https://spitfireresearch.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/paul-martin-195763b

The articles Paul Mentions during the episode:

The Myth Of Hydrogen Export: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/myth-hydrogen-export-spitfire-research-inc

What are the Energy Solutions? https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-energy-solutions-paul-martin

Hydrogen Science Coalition www.h2sciencecoalition.com

The episode was recorded on 17 April 2024

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#6 The Hydrogen Mythbuster Part I

Fri, 26 Apr 2024 04:00:00 +1000

Gunnar and James are talking to Paul Martin, a Canadian Chemical Process Development Expert and tireless advocate for a fossil fuel free future. This first part of a two-part episode looks into whether the claims that Australia has a future as a new energy provider to the world via Hydrogen exports are based on reality or wishful thinking. Paul Martin calls a lot of it #hopium - that should give you an indication of what Paul will be presenting.

Link to Part 2 of this chat.

Reach Paul at
https://spitfireresearch.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/paul-martin-195763b

The articles Paul mentions during the episode:

The Myth Of Hydrogen Export: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/myth-hydrogen-export-spitfire-research-inc

What are the Energy Solutions? https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-energy-solutions-paul-martin

Hydrogen Science Coalition www.h2sciencecoalition.com

The episode was recorded on 17 April 2024

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#5 The Vapour Flux

Fri, 12 Apr 2024 10:00:00 +1000

Our guest on this episode is Dr Adrian Heggie. Over the past decade Adrian has developed an amazingly simple method for the delineation of sub-surface hydrocarbon plumes (chlorinated or not) by measuring the aboveground concentration these plumes cause. His method is fast, accurate, inexpensive and most of all, does not require any invasive ground work. If you think this sounds too good to be true, this chat will convince you otherwise.

Adrian showcased his research at the recent Chlorinated Hydrocarbon Symposium held in Adelaide. Among the audience was Gunnar, who, like many others, was intrigued by the presentation. In this chat the two of them delve into Adrian's research and shed some light on how hydrocarbon contamination reaching the surface can be captured and measured (not a good pun, but still intended).

https://au.linkedin.com/in/adrian-heggie-b7767336

The episode was recorded on 28 March 2024.

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#4 The Trailblazer

Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:00:00 +1100

In this episode, we delve into the question of dangers lurking in unsuspecting areas like our backyards and public parks. Join Gunnar and James as they discuss with researcher Ana Serra the findings of her study into asbestos exposure from seemingly mundane activities like lawn mowing or soil disturbance during landscaping or Council maintenance work.

How many respirable fibres get released when a lawn mower drives over bonded asbestos fragments on the surface of a site?
What happens when the spinning blades hit a fragment and the fragment gets propelled out?
What happens when you do all this during a record breaking dry spell in hot and dusty Australian summer conditions ?
Is there a difference in exposure levels when you compare members of the public who are nearby the work areas to the exposure of the trades people doing the actual work?
What measures can be taken to avoid the release of respirable fibres during those activities?
How do you best approach the subject with worried staff members and the public?

The 2019 study was funded by Liverpool City Council. Investing in research is often a challenging decision for local councils, but guess which Council's rate payers are sitting rather sweet now during the Mulchgate panic and enjoy the fruit of the research? Huge credit to Liverpool City Council for taking the lead and funding the research. What a great investment it turned out to be.

This episode was recorded on 15 March 2024.

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#3 The Policy Predicament

Sat, 16 Mar 2024 20:00:00 +1100

James twisted Gunnar's arm and convinced him to record a podcast about issues around policies in the environmental industry. Why does the EPA quietly make updates to definitions but does not tell anyone about it? Why are there 'internal policies' that are not written down that the EPA and some local governments enforce willy nilly. Why is there no central spot for policy updates in our industry?

They also talk about proposed changes to the POEO Act (and before you get all excited, it is not what you think or hope for) and Gunnar proudly relives a meeting with the Lord Mayor of one of Sydney's biggest Councils and - clickbait alert - you will not believe what he actually said to him.

Gunnar and James of course put their usual unusual spin on things so it is definitely worth listening to.

The episode was recorded on 15 March 2024

Correction November 2024. Gunnar's comment about no data being available with regard to mobile phone use and accidents needs to be corrected. A listener pointed us into this direction: https://research.qut.edu.au/carrs-q/wp-content/uploads/sites/296/2020/06/Mobile-phone-distraction-FINAL.pdf

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#2 The Mulchgate

Tue, 27 Feb 2024 19:00:00 +1100

Sydney is still in the grip of an asbestos panic. In this episode we sit down with Philip Hibbs, one of the ultimate OH/S and asbestos experts in Australia. We chat about what he calls "Mulchgate", the actual risk to humans posed as a result, other risks humans are exposed to, we bag all sorts of regulators and organisations for their lack of leadership and we are having a fair bit of fun doing so.

Find out lore about Phil Hibbs at https://hibbs.com.au/ and https://au.linkedin.com/in/philip-hibbs-096a8a

This episode was recorded on 24 February 2024

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

#1 The Mulch Mishap

Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:00:00 +1100

Bonded asbestos fragments have been found in mulch in a brand-new park in Sydney's suburb Rozelle. The ensuing panic in the public, associated finger pointing and running for cover by contractors, suppliers, regulators and of course politicians was as expected as it was to a degree amusing.

Gunnar and James simply had to talk about this. The episode was recorded on Thursday 8 February 2024.

The Guardian Article we mention: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/jan/29/asbestos-nsw-findings-watchdog-epa-contaminated-soil-childcare-centres-schools-parks

The Mulch Order: https://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/-/media/epa/corporate-site/resources/wastegrants/rro16-mulch.pdf

The ENM Order: https://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/-/media/epa/corporate-site/resources/waste/rro14-excavated-natural-material.pdf

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