The Westminster Tradition

What Makes a Bloody Good Policy Officer?

Tue, 03 Mar 2026 04:00:00 +1030

Few people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy actually is? Enter Salli Cohen’s brilliant new book, 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer.'

In this episode we catch up with Salli about:

Her one-word definition of policy.
What it takes to be a genuinely good policy officer, beyond technical competence.
The difference between evidence-based and evidence-informed.
Why curiosity, empathy and humility are not ‘soft’ skills but core capabilities.
The importance of an orientation to serving the community.
Keeping your antennae up to context, politics and implementation realities.
The importance of letting people say their bit.
Speaking up when things are going pear-shaped.
Salli’s hopes for the next generation of policy professionals.

Purchase Salli's book 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer' officer here: https://www.thepolicyroom.com/product/Rollercoaster

Next week we return with Part 3 of our Mad Cow Disease series.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

'Mad Cow Disease' part 2 - a bogus professor and a dead cat

Tue, 17 Feb 2026 04:00:00 +1030

Part 2 of 4 on Mad Cow Disease: In this episode, the cracks in enforcement are showing, panic is slowly boiling, and the science is catching up.

What we cover:

The panic spike when BSE appears in domestic cats
The danger of stopping at the legislation, without interrogating whether industry is complying and how you would know.
The reassurance cycle – shock, anxiety, reassurance, repeat, and whether the Government could or should have said more.
The political landscape of EU export pressure, an era of deregulation, and expensive subsidies
From variable, localised enforcement to a centralised Meat Hygiene Service.
Where we end up by late 1995 – no human cases yet, but the MHS has a horrifying revelation that undermines trust in the controls.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

'Mad Cow Disease' part 1 - a crisis without a crime

Tue, 03 Feb 2026 04:00:00 +1030

We kick off a new series on 'Mad Cow Disease', or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and what it teaches us about governing when the science is uncertain, the consequences are enormous, but the risks are very remote.

Why BSE became a lasting symbol of government failure and secrecy, even though major inquiries later found decisions were largely science led.
Where to draw the line for regulatory settings with big market consequences.
Who really decides when portfolios collide, and who pays.
Why Pedigree pet food had a surprising influence on the risk ‘appetite’
Whether there is the authorising environment to act beyond the scientific advice.
Spoiler alert: “over reacting” and “under reacting” are not opposites, they overlap.

The brilliant podcast, ‘The Cows are Mad’ by BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rrhy/episodes/player

The West Wing: Season 3, episode 9 (featuring Mad Cow disease).

https://youtu.be/ouBr3F2qWMI?si=uecMkFaQFnMGVvyL&t=220

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

How to do Big Reform

Tue, 13 Jan 2026 04:00:00 +1030

We want to make lasting and meaningful change, but how do we get there? In this special episode Caroline interviews Frances Foster-Thorpe and Jason Tabarias about their insights into the skills and frameworks needed to tackle large, complex and ambitious reform.

We cover:

Biting off what you can chew by picking two of three factors: volume, cost, quality
Examples of big Australian reforms that did and didn't hit the mark
Lining up stakeholder expectations, the authorising environment, and operational capability
Stretching the political window of opportunity by looking up and out
Why sequencing can be a more productive conversation than prioritisation
Proposals that are needs or community-led, evidence based and implementation-ready
Making cross-system collaboration work: everyone is a colleague, everyone has valuable knowledge, and everyone is responsible for doing as much as we can
Tips for system diplomats and working with system diplomats

Mark Moore's strategic triangle

The Three Horizons Framework

Geoff Mulgan 'The Art of Public Strategy'

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

How It Started v How It’s Going: 3 years of TWT

Tue, 23 Dec 2025 04:00:00 +1030

Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public service, and it's a source of pure joy for us.

Reflecting on three years of TWT:

Humble and haphazard beginnings
What’s changed since the Robodebt Royal Commission
Our favourite interviews, scandals, episodes
Lifting the veil on moments of chaos
Our favourite moments with listeners (and do we need an identifier for the TWT listener cohort?)
Learnings on the journey and things we’ve changed our minds on

And that’s a wrap for 2025. Till next year!

Alison listing all the places we’ve “recorded” sounds remarkably like Shaggy… https://youtu.be/p4qqOHllgps?si=uEHlcD6JMW9Jabng

‘Abundance: How We Build a Better Future’ by Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Ezra-Klein,-Derek-Thompson-Abundance-9781805226055

Nigella Lawson reading ‘How to eat’ https://www.audible.com.au/pd/How-to-Eat-The-Pleasures-and-Principles-of-Good-Food-Audiobook/1473567351

Colin Firth’s indecent gravel: https://www.amazon.com/The-End-of-Affair-Graham-Greene-audiobook/dp/B0081293SO

Anything narrated by Richard Roxburgh https://www.audible.com.au/search?searchNarrator=Richard+Roxburgh&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&pf_rd_p=771c6463-05d7-4981-9b47-920dc34a70f1&pf_rd_r=C0M8084B840VVEERZRJ5&plink=IArL51tFosgDIpzy&pageLoadId=FlLq75E1cuzEn4oS&creativeId=adcc4fec-4d90-49d1-997e-8be21d68ce7f&ref=a_search_c3_lNarrator_1_2_1

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Buzzword Bingo

Tue, 09 Dec 2025 04:00:00 +1030

In this Christmas special, Caroline, Alison and Danielle unwrap the public service’s most gear-grinding buzzwords, what they’re supposed to mean and what they have now quietly become. With words crowdsourced from the fine listeners of TWT, we talk:

Big serious words and how their technical meanings have drifted
The corporate visitors who arrived and never left
Words that hide fear or indecision
How co-design can be a handbrake, and why government struggles to set boundaries on what is genuinely up for shaping.
Word of the year: nature-positive

The brilliant book that Alison refers to is ‘The Right Kind of Wrong’ by Amy Edmondson: https://www.dymocks.com.au/right-kind-of-wrong-by-amy-edmondson-9781847943781

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Imagine if... you were leading an orchard of bad apples

Tue, 25 Nov 2025 04:00:00 +1030

Your shiny new promotion turns out to be more than you bargained for.

In this scenario-based "Imagine if..." episode, Caroline and Danielle assume the role of a newly promoted manager who steps into a team they didn’t choose and some character-building challenges.

⚠️ Mild trigger warning for the depiction of toxic colleagues - we've all had one!

We cover:

Walking the floor and gathering intel
How to give the boss response to a credibility challenge
Clarifying the authorising environment
Lifting work quality
When to whip out the whiteboard to create a two-way learning exercise
Setting a vision and direction for the team that’s sensitive to the past
Responding to bad behaviour that’s not quite misconduct
To report or not to report; the risks of weighing in

Good egg managers in the Re Meagher case
https://hearsay.org.au/graduate-lawyer-fails-in-fair-work-act-bullying-claim/

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Imagine if … your sleepy grants program woke up

Tue, 11 Nov 2025 04:00:00 +1030

When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat — and explores what good judgment looks like when everyone’s waiting to be told what’s important.

The first in an “Imagine if…” series as requested by listeners — exploring the messy, real-world dilemmas of public administration.

We cover:

· Managing up and whether to buy into your boss’ crazy

· The hurry up and wait of briefing on options

· Verbal directions and when to turn them into written confirmation

· When to seek advice on legality

· Documentation! And the safeguard of personal file noting

· The fallacy of ‘not my job’ when every problem for government is a problem for everyone in government

· Having multiple comms plans and when not to pick up the phone

· The impacts of external pressure on internal process.

· Trap for the young players: informal intel travels very quickly

· Who gets to make the decision?

· Building in agility to allow for changing priorities

Shout out to the Normal Gossip podcast for inspiring this episode: https://open.spotify.com/show/0KVZ16mLZ1bbNlnKemYTzm

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Inside the public service's ‘Human Handbrake’: why reform stalls and how to fix it

Tue, 28 Oct 2025 04:00:00 +1030

Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo - and test practical fixes from risk stratification to outcome-focused equity. Topics covered include:

fear-driven risk culture and how to stratify risk
safe-to-fail spaces vs non-negotiable protections
policy hero incentives vs long-term stewardship
recruitment, merit, and better references
tribes and bridges between centre and frontline
proximity, exchanges, and communities of practice
simplicity bias vs equity and local texture
outcome measurement, real-time data, and storytelling
political tempo, accountability, and transparent milestones
culture as accelerator, not brake.

We covered a wild variety of content in this episode. Here's a smattering:

Demos The Human Handbrake
What do blueberries have to do with my job?
The Trust Equation
CONTAINED 30 minutes. 3 rooms. One truth about youth justice.
e61 research on the shift in social spend “Dependency should be debated”
The newspaper wall in the Kingsman movies

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

“It’s just a minor restructure” said no calendar ever

Tue, 14 Oct 2025 04:00:00 +1030

In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to union engagement and the “fourth trimester”, we consider how to make change stick with clarity and care.

why six to nine months is realistic for restructures
function before form and mapping real work
aligning vision to delivery using bottom‑up design
ministers and boards as informed stakeholders, not deciders
the centralise versus localise accordion and trade‑offs
middle managers as the glue of change
naming unknowns, iteration, and review cycles
working with unions
plumbing and HR sequencing that stalls programs
after ‘go‑live’ habits, SOPs, and consistent standards
what’s up for grabs versus non‑negotiable boundaries
logistics people actually care about: seats, commutes, WFH.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Who Really Moved My Cheese? Tales from the change management trenches

Tue, 30 Sep 2025 04:00:00 +0930

Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself.

Some of the ideas covered:

Change is happening all the time in government, not just during formal "change management" periods
Most people dislike uncertainty rather than change itself
Mission and values-driven staff struggle most with macro changes that shift agency direction
Medium-level changes (like new systems) are often underestimated and underfunded
The "don't be a dickhead rule" isn't enough—change management is genuinely difficult
Leaders should listen carefully to "change resistors" who may be flagging legitimate risks
Administrative foundations must be solid before change begins (position descriptions, contracts, etc.)
Different professional groups (lawyers, scientists, policy officers) respond differently to change
Maintaining a stable core while being honest about what's changing helps navigate transitions.

Referenced in this episode:

If Books Could Kill pod on Who Moved My Cheese?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Regulator/policy cage fight: ANZSOG National Regulators Community of Practice Conference 2025

Tue, 16 Sep 2025 04:00:00 +0930

Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025.

The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems, particularly in federated models like early childhood education. How do we reconcile a Commonwealth pouring billions into subsidies while state-based quality regulators remain chronically underfunded? What happens when funding accessibility doesn't come with proportionate strengthening of quality oversight?

Most revealing is the discussion about regulatory independence versus political interference. While statutory independence is crucial for regulatory integrity, our panelists acknowledge the reality that regulators remain part of government—subject to ministerial directions, government resourcing decisions, and public sector constraints.

This creates a challenging balance that every regulator must navigate daily.

Alison leaves with the best advice for all emerging regulators - find your people, people who you can trust and you can talk with and test your thinking.

Referenced in this episode:

James Shipton The Regulatory State: Faults, Flaws and False Assumptions
NRCoP 2025 National Conference Regulation 2025 to 2050: Disruption, Change and Continuity

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Hon Tom Koutsantonis MP: Lessons from a Veteran Minister

Tue, 02 Sep 2025 04:00:00 +0930

What makes someone qualified to be a minister? In this candid conversation with Tom Koutsantonis, South Australia's longest-serving current parliamentarian, Danielle explores the fascinating intersection where political leadership meets public administration.

Drawing on his remarkable career spanning multiple portfolios including Treasury, Energy, and Transport, Koutsantonis takes us behind the curtain of ministerial decision-making.

He dispels the myth that ministers need specialised expertise in their portfolio areas, arguing instead that their authority comes from democratic mandate and demonstrated competence rather than academic credentials.

The discussion offers a masterclass in policy implementation, particularly during times of crisis.

Koutsantonis shares the stark reality of South Australia's 2016 energy blackout, where conventional thinking had to be abandoned for bold action. "It was Jay and I just saying 'I don't care what you think,'" he recalls of overriding resistant public servants to implement transformative energy solutions. This candid account reveals how decisive leadership can break through entrenched bureaucratic thinking when circumstances demand it.

Public servants will find particular value in Koutsantonis's insights on ministerial briefings. Despite modern trends toward abbreviated formats, he staunchly defends detailed written briefings: "If ministers aren't reading past the first three lines, it's to their detriment." His perspective offers reassurance that thorough policy work remains essential to good governance.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Billion-Dollar Payroll Disaster: lessons from Queensland Health’s Payroll System

Tue, 19 Aug 2025 05:00:00 +0930

In this episode, Danielle, Caroline and Alison look at ANOTHER big ICT transformation project, with enormous human impacts and a long and expensive clean up.

The Queensland Health payroll system failure ranks as one of Australia's worst public administration disasters, costing taxpayers $1.2 billion and leaving 78,000 healthcare workers without proper pay.

What began as a $98 million routine upgrade became a case study in governance failure, mismanaged procurement, and the dangers of outsourcing critical government functions without maintaining proper oversight. IBM was actually barred from taking Queensland government work for its involvement in the scandal.

In this episode we revisit some lessons with a sharper eye on lessons including:

It’s easy to get out of touch with what matters to your workforce - and payroll is *the* most important back end function
The critical question of identifying how much inaccuracy you are willing to live with before accepting a system
Contract management is critical - and never sign a release from liability just to get the contractor to keep working
Generalists can’t stand back from ICT projects

Referenced in this episode

Richard Chesterman QC Queensland Health Payroll System Commission of Inquiry (2013)
The Radical How’s recommendation to shift procurement so that we buy or rent services that support teams, not simply to whom outcomes are outsourced“

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Working from home: when flexibility becomes political

Tue, 05 Aug 2025 05:00:00 +0930

In this episode, we dive into Danielle’s favourite topic - work place flexibility. Public servants working from home has become a visible fault line in Australian politics and media, revealing deeper questions about productivity, surveillance, and trust in our workplaces. The convenience culture debate exposes how work design impacts everything from gender equity to regional development.

Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the following:

That COVID forced rapid technology deployment and showed flexible work was more feasible than previously claimed
The way in which working from home discussions often get unhelpfully gendered, limiting broader conversations about work design
The leadership capability gaps revealed in the "if I can't see them, how do I know they're working" mindset
How intentional communication becomes even more important in hybrid or remote environments
Why the topic has a special valence in relation to the public service, and public expectations.

Referenced in the episode :

The work of Professor Carol Kulik on the importance of autonomy in the workplace
Worksafe Australia’s advice on the psychosocial hazards, including low job control, poor support and lack of role clarity.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Radical How: Why one big bet is government’s riskiest move

Tue, 22 Jul 2025 05:00:00 +0930

What if the real problem in public service reform isn't what we're trying to do, but how we're trying to do it? Caroline, Danielle, and Alison dive deep into a revolutionary approach to government change by examining The Radical How – a framework published by UK innovation foundation Nesta.

The conversation unpacks three core principles that could transform public service:

start small and test assumptions early rather than pretending to know all answers upfront;
build genuinely multidisciplinary teams instead of working in silos; and
focus relentlessly on outcomes for people rather than system outputs.

Through concrete examples like COVID testing in the UK and reflections on infrastructure projects that changed course mid-development, we illuminate both the potential and challenges of this approach.

But implementing this "radical how" faces significant barriers – from political imperatives that demand certainty to procurement systems that reward the wrong things.

We grapple with tough questions about experimenting in people's lives, gaining social license for change, and communicating complex approaches in simple ways.

We reflect on how federalism already offers a natural experiment in policy diversity across Australian jurisdictions, though we rarely harness its full potential.

Referenced in the episode

NESTA The Radical How
The radical 1960s schools experiment that created a whole new alphabet - and left thousands of children unable to spell
Rick Morton Smoking data taken down after link to vape ban
Our previous episode on Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learned

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Tom Loosemore: behind the scenes of the Universal Credit Reset

Tue, 08 Jul 2025 05:00:00 +0930

Tom Loosemore of Public Digital was instrumental in the capital R Reset of Universal Credit.

In this interview, he tells Caroline there were no beanbags, but a lot of multi-D.

This interview adds nuance and richness to the picture sketched in our previous Universal Credit episodes. Some of the key insights include:

Fundamental problem of the original approach was thinking of Universal Credit as a technology challenge rather than a complex policy, operational, and design challenge
The first phase of system design suffered from incorrect data models, overly complex contracting arrangements, and thousands of untested assumptions
Reset team created a small, multidisciplinary team, outside main DWP building to establish psychological safety
Clear ministerial outcome statement ("more people in more work more of the time") provided crucial North Star
Testing real service with 100 users through creative use of secondary legislation before wider rollout
Radical shift was to understand that the core feature of Universal Credit was how to cope with change of circumstances, not signing on or signing off
Senior leaders like Neil Couling protected teams from political interference while maintaining ministerial accountability
Adaptable culture allowed 9-10 policy/technology changes daily during COVID crisis
Digital transformation requires outcomes focus, multidisciplinary teams, and continuous testing of assumptions
System proved sustainability by withstanding unprecedented change in both demand and policy over time

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Rescuing a bin fire: Test and Learn and Universal Credit (Part 2)

Tue, 24 Jun 2025 05:00:00 +0930

In this second episode on Universal Credit, we talk about how the team transitioned from catastrophic failure to remarkable success.

We cover:

The barriers to test and learn - from the need for certainty by leaders, to Treasury requirements for business cases, to the need to support Ministers
The lessons learnt by the 10 year in role SRO Neil Couling [sorry CCB called you Neil Coulson!!] - including ‘avoid the tyranny of the timetable’
Whether test and learn will be something younger generations find easier to manage than us Gen X-ers
The glory of farewell speeches, inspired by Iain Duncan-Smith’s resignation letter.

Referenced in this episode:

The Institute for Government’s event From disaster to completion?
Andrew Solomon’s book Far from the Tree

Cover art is from Nesta’s The Radical How.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

From hot mess to delivered: Universal Credit and delivering system wide reform (Part 1)

Tue, 10 Jun 2025 05:00:00 +0930

In the shadow of worries about the NDIS, do we even believe that big system reform in Australia is do-able any more? Is the juice worth the squeeze?

In this first of a two part series, we explore the example of Universal Credit, a 15 year long reform agenda in the UK to combine 6 benefits into one, and, more importantly, seeking to transform the relationship of the citizen to work and welfare.

In this episode we unpick how it goes from an idea that is incorporated into the UK Coalition Government’s priority list in 2010 to a £450m hot mess in 2013.

We also look at the unusual (and brave) decision to keep going.

Along the way, we cover:

Whether radical transparency can be an answer to rescuing something when you’re in the middle of a hot mess?
Whether we underestimate the importance of a ’holder of the vision’ in giant systems reform?
Whether articulating a north star for reform is hard because it makes clear what you are prioritising, and, equally importantly, what you’re not?
The laughable idea of low hanging fruit

Referenced in the episode:

Ed Milliband’s interview referencing PM Gordon Brown as an ideas factory, on Leading (The Rest is Politics)
David Freud’s masterful memoir on his seminal role in Universal Credit, Clashing Agendas
Institute for Government has held a number of great events on this, including one in 2016 and another in 2025
Abul Rizvi’s appearance on Joe Walker podcast on the origins of Australia’s immigration system

Intro grab is Lord David Freud from Institute for Government 2016 event, From disaster to recovery: Learning the lessons of Universal Credit Clashing Agendas.

Outro grab is Tom Loosemore, former Deputy Director, Government Digital Services, from Institute for Government 2025 event, From disaster to completion? What Government can learn from the Universal Credit story?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Vanstone Files: Unpacking Ministerial Power

Tue, 27 May 2025 04:00:00 +0930

In a wide ranging discussion, Alison, Caroline and Danielle come together to discuss the gems from the Amanda Vanstone interview, which examined how power, responsibility and decision-making played out at the top of government during her two decades as a federal minister.

Vanstone's approach to being a minister - asking questions until understanding, visiting programs unannounced, and taking full responsibility for decisions - offers deep insights.

We also canvas some less expected topics, including:

Is it a boomer quality to use ALL CAPS in inconveniently located thank you notes?
- See the memoir of UK civil service head What Does Jeremy Think? by Suzanne Heywood
Are the best questions the ones asked by kindergarteners 'Who? What? Why?'
- See also Maria Katsonis LinkedIn post on The Art of Asking Smarter Questions
Are people disinterested in history in policy making, or are we just pitching it wrong?
- See also Abul Rizvi on Immigration Policy on The Joe Walker Podcast
- Memoir of Pamela Churchill Harriman Kingmaker by Sonia Purnell
Was Amanda Vanstone falling in to the classic 'good girl' trope of delivering savings, rather than posturing about plans to deliver savings?
- On why Australia struggles with a conversation about trade offs, see Judith Brett on How a Benthamite Political Culture Shaped Australia's Electoral System, on The Joe Walker Podcast
Would we star in a documentary on tricky policy making? Or do we already have the essence of one in Utopia?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Hon Amanda Vanstone AO - Inside the Westminster Machine

Tue, 13 May 2025 05:00:00 +0930

Former Senator Amanda Vanstone offers a masterclass in ministerial leadership, delivering sharp insights from her 21-year political career that are as relevant today as they were during her time in Prime Minister Howard's Cabinet. Cutting through bureaucratic excuses with remarkable clarity, she reveals how effective ministers must take full responsibility while developing practical strategies to uncover what's really happening within their departments.

Vanstone's approach to ministerial oversight was refreshingly direct—phoning junior staff who prepared briefs rather than accepting sanitized information from senior executives, making unannounced visits to government-funded programs, and consistently asking "how does that work?" until satisfied with the answers. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect," she notes, emphasizing that accountability requires hands-on leadership.

Her frank discussion of major reforms like the creation of Centrelink highlights how structural change requires both political courage and practical problem-solving. When departments maintained separate offices but required them to be within walking distance, she asked the obvious question: "Why not put them together?" This common-sense approach characterized her leadership across Employment, Education, Justice and Immigration portfolios.

What stands out most powerfully is Vanstone's perspective on ministerial responsibility. "That's why ministers sign on the bottom line. That's why you get paid," she asserts, rejecting excuses about inherited problems or departmental advice. Her experiences with Immigration Department failures—including the wrongful deportation of Australian citizen Vivian Alvarez—taught her that when you find one serious problem, you must look deeper: "When a mouse runs out of your fridge, you think that's a mouse. When the second one comes a week later, you bring the fridge out and clean it out."

Ready for straight talk about how government really works? Listen now to learn why Amanda Vanstone believes we urgently need another National Commission of Audit and how effective ministers must balance scrutiny with support to get the best from public servants.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

DOGE or GROSS (Getting Rid of Stupid Stuff) 😩: the touchy subject of efficiency in the public service

Tue, 29 Apr 2025 04:00:00 +0930

Efficiency is in the news ... but what does it mean? How should public servants work on improving efficiency? Should we be focused on system reform, ending whole entitlements, or nibbling at the edges?

How to know what kind of budget savings task you are in - deep restructuring or a cyclical contraction / expansion?
Is front line v back office a helpful distinction?
When are external reviews helpful, and when do they hurt?
What is the role of tech in delivering savings?

Referenced in the episode

Institute for Government's reflections on PM Starmer's Rewiring the State agenda
Suzanne Heywood "What does Jeremy think? Jeremy Heywood and the Making of Modern Britain"
John Halligan (with Jules Wills) "The Centrelink Experiment"
BBC 'Denmark's postal service to stop delivering letters'
The NDIS Review

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Picking the Scab of Recruitment - Part 2 'The Employer'

Tue, 15 Apr 2025 04:00:00 +0930

Surfing a wave of listener feelings about this topic, Danielle takes us through the experience of public service recruitment from the other side.

Danielle and Alison argue about the merits of requiring 'in house' recruitment before externally advertising positions
The role that conservative (perhaps inexpert??) local budget management plays in driving a cycle of vacancies and short term contracts
How complex recruitment processes make the public service less and less like the public we serve
Ezra Klein's podcast episode In This House, We're Angry When Government Fails
The good, the bad and the ugly of external recruiters

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

🗳️ Election special 🗳️ Caretaker conventions, IGBs and some 🥳 vox pops 🥳

Tue, 01 Apr 2025 04:00:00 +1030

The starter's gun has gone on Australia's national elections for 2025 and Parliament has been prorogued.

In this episode, former head of Cabinet Office and keeper of the Caretaker Conventions, Alison answers Caroline and Danielle's increasingly pointed questions, and we end with arguing about the importance of formatting.

Stay tuned to the end for some fabulous insider advice for managing caretaker period and elections as a public servant.

This episode is dedicated to the significant birthday of Sandy Pitcher, a public service legend (read more about her here).

Intro grab courtesy of the Hon Nat Cook MP, Minister for Human Services (SA).

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Picking the Scab of Recruitment - Part 1 'The Applicant'

Tue, 18 Mar 2025 04:00:00 +1030

Drawing on overwhelming feedback from our listeners, in this episode we unpack the experience of being recruited into the public sector (or ghosted along the way).

Danielle takes us through

What goes in Role Descriptions (hint: it shouldn't be slabs of legislation)
The madness of defined requirements like 'driving' and 'interstate travel' (and whether Caroline's sister can really change a tyre)
Alison's idea of an X factor style button for use in interviews when it's immediately clear this isn't working for anyone

We finish with a listener description of a mad recruitment process that ends with, you guessed, it, ghosting.

Thanks to Mary, our mug winner for this episode, for a great story!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Oakden aged care scandal part 3 - “Boss on the floor” … or, how bad things stayed secret

Tue, 04 Mar 2025 04:00:00 +1030

How did the abuse at Oakden remain hidden for so long? And what finally brought it to light?

In this episode we discuss:

why families might not complain
how small, isolated outposts can hide terrible things
the importance of following up on things that don’t feel quite right.

Intro grab from the RN Background Briefing episode A Failure to Care: The Oakden Nursing Home, featuring Lorraine Baff, whose father was a patient at Oakden.

You can find the full ICAC Report into Oakden here, and the Chief Psychiatrist report here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

REDUX - What the NACC is going on? Updates on Robodebt and the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC)

Fri, 21 Feb 2025 14:00:00 +1030

In light of this week's decision that the NACC will pursue investigations into six public officials, we thought we would repost this episode from December 2024 explaining why the NACC's original decision to take no further action needed to be revisited, with a little explainer up front on the latest news.

You can find out more about the NACC's announcement on 18th February 2025 here.

In this episode, we talk about where things are at, managing conflicts of interest, and whether corruption always involves brown paper bags.

For Rick Morton's reporting on this:

Oakden aged care scandal part 2 - there’s no $$$ in limbo

Tue, 18 Feb 2025 05:00:00 +1030

For over a decade, the state government vacillated about whether or not to privatise the Oakden Older Persons Mental Health Facility.

Once the 2007 accreditation crisis had passed, however, it never reached the top of the ‘to do’ list. Meanwhile, investment in facilities and staffing were endlessly postponed pending a decision.

In this episode, we discuss:

the dangers of decay while waiting for strategic directions
whether an organisation is ever really too broke to buy a $15 piece of equipment;
some tactics for unsticking things.

We also discuss an excellent listener question from a manager in social services policy who is thinking of getting out.

Intro and outro grabs from the RN Background Briefing episode A Failure to Care: The Oakden Nursing Home, featuring Alma Krecu and Lorraine Baff, whose fathers were patients at Oakden.

You can find the full ICAC Report into Oakden here, and the Chief Psychiatrist report here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Oakden aged care scandal part 1 - good in a crisis (...bad on the follow through)

Tue, 04 Feb 2025 05:00:00 +1030

We return for 2025 with a series on the Oakden Older Persons Mental Health Facility, an SA Government run facility whose scandalous conditions and institutionalised elder abuse were exposed in 2017, prompting (among other things) a Commonwealth Royal Commission.

In this episode, we unpack a missed opportunity in 2007 to move Oakden from a mid-twentieth century asylum to a modern aged care facility, when the facility failed Commonwealth accreditation standards.

Why is it so easy for executives to mobilise resources in a crisis, but so hard for managers to redress chronic under resourcing?
How do you make sure you keep your eye on the long-term solution when the spot light is on?

Intro and outro grabs from the RN Background Briefing episode A Failure to Care: The Oakden Nursing Home, featuring Carla Baron, the aged care consultant who quit in 2007 because she didn’t think management wanted to change.

You can find the full ICAC Report into Oakden here, and the Chief Psychiatrist report here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Ask a Secretary! Mike Kaiser (former) head of the Department of Premier and Cabinet (Qld)

Tue, 14 Jan 2025 03:00:00 +1030

What do Secretaries really think when junior staff ask for career advice? Why are silos so impermeable? And should Christmas really be cancelled? Join Danielle and Caroline as they take Mike through listener questions.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mike Kaiser, former DG of Department of Premier and Cabinet (Qld)

Tue, 31 Dec 2024 05:00:00 +1030

Mike Kaiser, recently departed head of the Queensland Public Service, joins us to chat about the interface between political offices and the public service, lessons from robodebt, why delivery is everything in government and the secret of leadership.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The State of the Service - drawing the threads from Coombs to Thodey to where we are now

Tue, 17 Dec 2024 02:00:00 +1030

Danielle unpacks the recently released APS State of the Service, with a look over our should at where we’ve come from - from the 1976 Coombs Royal Commission on Australian Government Administration, to the 2019 Thodey Review of the APS.

How are women, First Nations and people with disability going in the APS? What about class?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

What the NACC is going on? Updates on Robodebt and the National Anti-Corruption Commission

Mon, 02 Dec 2024 21:00:00 +1030

Keeping track of the National Anti-Corruption Commission and Robodebt is tricky - first there's no investigation, then there's some kind of review, then there's a search for an eminent person....

In this episode, we talk about where things are at, managing conflicts of interest, and whether corruption always involves brown paper bags.

For Rick Morton's reporting on this:

Mr Bates v Post Office part 8 - ‘The One Where The Report is a Slide Deck’

Tue, 19 Nov 2024 02:00:00 +1030

Post Office’s internal inquiries never got to the bottom of the situation. Here we unpack how to choose an investigator, getting the information to the person, and what do with a report.

Opening grab from Sir Anthony Hooper, independent chair of Horizon mediation scheme.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Paula Vennels, former Post Office Limited Chief Executive.

Subsequent grab Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mr Bates v Post Office part 7 - ‘The One Where The Inquiries Go Nowhere’

Tue, 05 Nov 2024 01:00:00 +1030

Post Office leadership commissioned at least 6 different investigations of varying degrees of independence and rigor into complaints about Horizon after 2010. And yet none of them got to the truth. In the next two episodes, we unpack what not to do when setting up inquiries and investigations.

Opening grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.

Final grab from Mr Beer KC and Rod Ismay, Former Post Office Limited, Head of Product and Branch Accounting.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

TWT Ask Us Anything! Part 2 - culture and integrity agencies

Tue, 15 Oct 2024 04:00:00 +1030

Another great round of questions, thanks!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

TWT Ask Us Anything! Part 1 - trust in government, and how we organise ourselves

Tue, 01 Oct 2024 04:00:00 +0930

Thanks for the questions folks!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Finally, the APSC has published its findings about Robodebt: what did they find, and where to from here?

Mon, 16 Sep 2024 08:00:00 +0930

The Australian Public Service Commission has released the findings of its Centralised Code of Conduct Inquiry into Robodebt.

Outro grab from The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 10.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mr Bates v Post Office part 6 - information dead ends and accountability sinks

Tue, 13 Aug 2024 05:00:00 +0930

In this episode, we look at why Post Office kept prosecuting Sub Post Masters through the lens of Dan Davies' analysis in his new book The Unaccountability Machine.

Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Alisdair Cameron, CFO and former interim CE of Post Office Ltd.

Subsequent grab from Mr Blake KC (Counsel Assisting) and Graham Brander, former Post Office Investigator.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Anne Chambers, former Fujitsu Engineer Third Line Support.

Final grab from Mr Blake KC and Paul Inwood, former Post Office Limited Contract Manager.

For thorough and detailed reporting of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mr Bates v Post Office part 5 - prosecuting the innocent

Tue, 30 Jul 2024 05:00:00 +0930

A massive power imbalance, everyone doing the narrowest version of their jobs, and an overriding culture that assumed postmasters were thieves. These are just some of the ways Post Office ended up prosecuting postmasters for shortfalls that existed only on the computer.

Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Rob Wilson, former Head of the Royal Mail Group Criminal Law Team.

Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Helen Rose, former Post Office / Royal Mail Group Auditor.

Final grab from Andrew Wise, former Advisor in the Network Business Support Centre, Post Office.

For thorough and detailed reporting of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Hon John Hill, on being a Minister

Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:00:00 +0930

In this episode, former state Minister for Health and the Arts (among others) the Hon John Hill, shares his insights into what Ministers want - and what they need - from the public service.

You can buy his book ‘On being a Minister’ here - and if you’re brave, share with your Minister!

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Andrew Podger AO: Is Thodey public sector reform on Steroids or Valium?

Tue, 25 Jun 2024 01:00:00 +0930

In this second interview with former Commonwealth Secretary and Australian Public Service Commissioner Andrew Podger AO, Danielle gets to chat about

The pros and cons of bringing all service delivery together in a single agency
The valuing of operational expertise v policy leadership
The role of portfolio budget practices in driving Robodebt
Cultures of challenge and diversity of thought
The future of public service reform.

References in the episode

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Andrew Podger AO: the induction, tenure and bravery of Secretaries

Tue, 11 Jun 2024 05:00:00 +0930

With a decade as a Commonwealth Secretary, and two more as Australian Public Service Commissioner, it is no surprise Robodebt Royal Commissioner Holmes turned to Andrew Podger AO for expert advice on the operation of the public service.

In this episode, Danielle talks to Andrew about the impact that granting tenure could have on the quality of advice, the increasing use of labour hire in the public service, and the importance of senior executives having read the legislation.

Also referenced in the conversation:

The ‘Barilaro Report’: NSW DPC Investigation into the Appointment of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner to the Americas
Blair Comley, Cth Secretary Health and Ageing, speech to IPAA (14 March 2024)

Intro grab features Counsel Assisting Justin Greggery, Ms Kathryn Campbell AO CSC, and Commission Holmes, 11 November 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Essendon Footy Club supplements scandal (part 3): regulation in a changing world

Tue, 28 May 2024 04:00:00 +0930

What does the community want more - every last transgressor to be punished, or government to keep out of their business?

How can regulators keep pace with changing community expectations about what is ‘appropriate’ - and, indeed, what is a workplace?

What is a regulator to do when you’re facing these issues in the full glare of media scrutiny?

In this final episode of the Essendon mini-series, we think about what this footy doping scandal can tell us about the challenges of being a modern regulator.

Intro grab is then Chief Executive of the AFL, Andrew Demetriou, at the press conference releasing the Australian Crime Commission report on 7 February, 2013.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Essendon Footy Club supplements scandal (part 2): what’s it like to investigate Australia’s biggest sports codes?

Mon, 13 May 2024 12:00:00 +0930

In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators.

In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead.

But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an anti-doping violation, or a WHS breach? And why do Cronulla players end up suspended for six matches, while Essendon players get two years?

Intro grab is Richard Eccles, former Deputy Secretary Department for Regional Australia, Local Government, Arts and Sports.

Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray, former Essendon player.

Both from the Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Royal Commission we should have? The 2013 Essendon Football Club supplements scandal

Mon, 29 Apr 2024 07:00:00 +0930

“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015.

In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013.

In this episode, we talk about what happened in Essendon itself. The dangers of charismatic new leaders, new brooms through an organisation, and a failure to take controls and risk management seriously.

Referenced in this episode:

Lindsay Tanner ‘Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal’
The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day
Ziggy Switkowski report into failures of governance at Essendon Football Club
Dr Bruce Reid letter to Essendon Football Club about his concerns about the supplement regime

Intro grab is Lindsay Tanner, Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal.

Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray and Emma Murray, The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Sue Vardon AO, inaugural CE of Centrelink: On learning while in the job

Tue, 16 Apr 2024 05:00:00 +0930

In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO).

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Sue Vardon AO, inaugural CE of Centrelink: On lawyers

Sat, 30 Mar 2024 07:00:00 +1030

In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

'Do it now, get it right later': payment (in)accuracy in Centrelink - setting the stage for Robodebt

Tue, 19 Mar 2024 17:00:00 +1030

Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later.

We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout.

Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end definition of efficiency, that captures costs we move to other parts of government, or end up paying later on.

ANAO Report on Accuracy and Timeliness of Welfare Payments (2023)
The UK Covid Inquiry Podcast

Intro grab from Sue Vardon AO Bonus Episode.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mr Bates v Post Office part 4 - the roll out of Horizon

Mon, 04 Mar 2024 15:00:00 +1030

If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides.

In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the Post Office scandal, we examine how the Post Office 'forgot' what it knew about Horizon's unreliability, and then removed key guard rails that might have prevented false prosecutions.

Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Kathryn Parker (former Post Office training), 13 January 2023.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Susan Harding (former Post office Business Process Architect), 22 February 2023.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mr Bates v Post Office part 3 - accepting a lemon

Tue, 20 Feb 2024 04:00:00 +1030

Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own.

In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going.

We also have strong feelings about the idea of 'minimum viable products' where the delivery of social services - and the founding of prosecutions - are concerned.

Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Stuart Sweetman (former Managing Director of Post Office Counters Limited), 17 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Mr Jeremy Folkes (former Infrastructure Assurance Team Leader, Horizon Programme, Post Office Counters Ltd) and Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting), 17 November 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mr Bates v Post Office part 2 - what happens when a PM is faced with no good choices

Tue, 06 Feb 2024 21:00:00 +1030

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place?

And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.)

In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI).

Among other things, we talk about the role of first ministers and Cabinet in resolving disagreements between portfolios with genuinely different interests; the impossibility of outsourcing political risk; and the challenge of working out the truth when everyone you speak to has an agenda.

Harriet Harman, Minister for Social Services, February 1998 letter to PM Blair can be found here.
Geoff Mulgan's December 1998 minute to PM Blair can be found here, and his reflections after appearing at the Inquiry can be found on his blog here.

Opening grab from Lord Alistair Darling, former Chief Secretary of Treasury, 29 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Sir Geoffrey Mulgan, former civil servant No. 10 Downing St, 2 December 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Mr Bates v Post Office - shades of Robodebt?

Wed, 24 Jan 2024 15:00:00 +1030

Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco.

Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar?

Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office Trial
Alison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's Think Again
On the 'objective review' conducted by the Post Office in 2010 to make the strongest case as to why Horizon should be trusted, see, Nick Wallis Rod Ismay: The Useful Idiot
Tony Moore 'Sorry' not such a hard work for Peter Beattie to say
Sylvan Baker, Mr Bates vs The Post Office: why docudramas have the power to inspire real social and political change
Channel 7 has secured the Australian rights to Mr Bates v Post Office.

Intro grab features Paula Vennells, Chief Executive of Post Office, appearing before a Parliamentary Select Committee in 2015.
Outro grab features Peter Beattie apologising for excluding athletes from the Commonwealth Games closing ceremony in 2018.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Bonus episode: Sue Vardon AO - inaugural CE of Centrelink (1997-2004)

Tue, 26 Dec 2023 19:00:00 +1030

In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same.

She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading the establishment of Centrelink.

Along the way, she covers the difference between being a 'customer' and a 'recipient', the snap back of bureaucratic and hierarchical cultures, the value of operational experience and much more.

Grab at around 1 hr 6 min is Commissioner Holmes and Kathryn Campbell AO CSC and Bar, November 11 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Sue Vardon AO has 23 years of experience as a public sector Chief Executive, including CE of the Office of Public Sector Reform, the Public Service Commissioner and the CE of the Department for Correctional Services in South Australia. She was inaugural CE of Centrelink in 1997, a position she held until 2004. She finished her full-time public service career as CE of the South Australian Department for Families and Communities. She was the first Telstra Businesswoman of the Year.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

16. Taking responsibility - lessons from Robodebt

Fri, 01 Dec 2023 05:00:00 +1030

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question.

Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away.

The discussion covers
- capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly
- risk as a frame for empowering people to push unwelcome information up
- the challenges with record keeping for institutional continuity, including the lost art of capturing decisions

Referenced in the episode:
- The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, on building safety culture
- The Squid Hunter by David Grann (Alison's giant squid article)

Intro and further grabs from our special bonus episode interview with Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe Law School.
Later grabs from: Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022, and Ms Serena Wilson and Mr Justin Greggery KC, 9 November 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Bonus Episode: Dr Darren O'Donovon on centering the victims of Robodebt, the fragmentation of knowledge and accountability, and the creation of moral discomfort

Thu, 16 Nov 2023 06:00:00 +1030

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt.

*This was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.*

Some references from the interview include:

Frank Kafka Before the Law
Pamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)
Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereotype, discrimination and the discourse of colonialism (2001)
Evidence from Michael Kerr-Brown re ATO being well positioned to push back against the DHS request, transcript from 12 December 2022 p. 1615
Nick Gill, Nothing Personal? Geographies of Governing and Activism in the British Asylum System (2015)
Darren O'Donovan Victims now know they were right about robodebt all along at The Conversation

Grabs included are:

Angus Scott KC, Louise Macleod (Ombudsman) and Commissioner Holmes, 8 March
Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022
Commissioner Holmes and Michael Kerr-Brown (ATO), 12 December 2022
Tim Ffrench (DHS), 22 February 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

15. Behavioural insights in Robodebt: at last, an argument!

Wed, 08 Nov 2023 21:00:00 +1030

In this episode, Danielle and Alison bring the conflict on their views of behavioural insights. Danielle thinks it's a revelation that government started thinking about its customers and what works for them. Alison thinks it's oversold, and not always deployed in the interests of the people. Caroline wonders if we can all just get along.

Ultimately, the listeners win.

References from the episode include:

If Books Could Kill podcast on Nudge
Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Nudge: Improving decisions about health, wealth and happiness (2009).
On the replicability crisis in behavioural economics, see Gideon Lewis-Kraus 'They studied dishonesty. Was their work a lie?' New Yorker.

The intro grab features Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

14. The Grinch that stole Christmas

Tue, 17 Oct 2023 01:00:00 +1030

Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower.

She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our work never ends.

Meanwhile, Alison gives another excellent life hack - this time about taking work emails off your phone on leave.

As promised in the episode, here is Commissioner Holmes' finding about what happened to the requested legal advice: "The Commission finds that Ms Campbell instructed DHS officers to cease the process of responding to Mr Jackson’s request for advice, motivated by a concern that the unlawfulness of the Scheme might be exposed to the Ombudsman in the course of its investigation." (see page 189)

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Commissioner Holmes and Ms Annette Musolino, 30 January 2023.

Later grab features Mr Derek Greggery KC and Ms Kathryn Campbell, 7 March 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

13. Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learned

Mon, 09 Oct 2023 20:00:00 +1030

In September 2014, at the very moment DHS invents Robodebt, the APS receives a frank assessment of its limitations in the form of the Final Report Home Insulation Program Royal Commission.

In this episode, a review of the 'pink batts' Royal Commission report shows the key failings that recur.

Why is it so hard as a public servant to say 'we can't do this in the time allowed?'

How should generalists respond when asked to engage in technical subject matter that we don't understand?

And once again, how do we ensure collegiality doesn't lead to group think and unwillingness to raise risks?

You can find the Final Report of the Home Insulation Program Royal Commission here, and the comments about public servant testimony on page 13.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Mr Chris Birrer and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 7 November 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

12. Robodebt as algorithm (part 3) - Jurassic Park ICT and AI

Tue, 05 Sep 2023 07:00:00 +0930

In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works.

We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the systemic racism that underpinned its operation.

We finish up by thinking about how AI black box decision making may interact with a historic trend of government interventions that focus on individual entitlement, rather than community needs.

You can find more information about the legal landscape of automated decision making in Anna Huggins (2021) "Addressing Disconnection: Automated decision-making, administrative law and regulatory reform".

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

*The intro grab this week is an AI called Russell reading an extract from Minister Shorten's 25 July 2023 speech at the AFR Government Summit. While an AI voice is on theme, if anyone has access to an actual recording of the speech, we will happily put that up instead. Just email us.*

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

11. Robodebt as algorithm (part 2) - random number generator decision-making

Tue, 22 Aug 2023 21:00:00 +0930

How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies?

In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as proof to send people to jail.

You can find Alison's homework reading by former Chief Justice French here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Robodebt victim, Rosemary Gay, and Counsel Assisting Douglas Freeburn.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

10. Robodebt as algorithm (part 1) - junk data and Swiss cheese

Sat, 05 Aug 2023 14:00:00 +0930

The first of a number of episodes on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt.
This episode focuses on big data in government - what we know about it, the ways in which data can be hard to use, and the supreme importance of context. Danielle talks about disappearing from a government system, and Alison gives an important life hack to all double-barrelled surname holders.

You can find a link to the Professor Darren O’Donovan article mentioned up front here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Dr Elea Wurth and Commissioner Holmes, 8 March 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

9. Why is it hard to hear whistleblowers? The lessons from Robodebt

Fri, 04 Aug 2023 18:00:00 +0930

Why can it be hard to hear whistleblowers in big organisations? Caroline takes us through Kathryn Campbell's response to whistleblowers that come in via the media and come in via the union, and thinks there's something in that.
Alison thinks it's a failure of change management - but is stuck on finding words to describe that aren't "waffle cloud".
Danielle finally gets to ask 'what would Colleen do?' - but we all agree it takes a person of rare temperament to be as graceful as Colleen Taylor in blowing the whistle.

You can find the anonymous letter from the whistleblower to GetUp! here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Colleen Taylor, and Counsel Assisting Mr Scott, 13 December 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Bonus Episode: The Robodebt Report is out - early thoughts and reflections

Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:00:00 +0930

In this special episode, Caroline and Danielle unpack their feelings about the Royal Commission Report, five days after its release.

We also pick through some of the Commissioner's key findings, as they relate to things discussed in previous episodes.

If you are new to the podcast, we suggest you start at the beginning and come to this after you've listened for a bit.

You can find Rick Morton's podcast here, and his books On Money and 100 Years of Dirt.

Intro grab features Ms Colleen Taylor, 13 December 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

8. Advice is just advice - what the lawyers knew about Robodebt

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 17:00:00 +0930

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the many different ways in which lawyers in the Commonwealth Government knew that Robodebt was illegal well before the Federal Court settlement in late 2019.
You might not remember who wrote the constitutional law text book, but you would remember going to a conference where an eminent KC dismantles your program point by point.
Danielle's deep loathing of ritual data collection proves sensible when we discuss the work that DHS lawyers did in reviewing AAT decisions.
Meanwhile, Alison's blood boils as we hear 'advice is just advice', and we learn how the Government was in possession of legal advice declaring Robodebt unlawful from mid 2018 and did nothing.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Annette Musolino, 1 March 2023

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

7. 'A bit of a fixer-upper' - DHS and the botched launch of Robodebt

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 17:00:00 +0930

In this episode, Caroline takes us through how DHS responds in early 2017 when things start hitting the fan. Aggressive defence is the name of game in the media, while in the background frantic efforts are made to improve 'the customer interface'.
We talk about how DHS backed themselves into a corner, and despite a lot of senior attention to solve problems, never picked up the rock to check what was underneath.
We also talk about how hard it is to fix something while it's operating.
We finish by discussing the importance of departments maintaining relationships with stakeholders irrespective of the flavour of the government of the day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Tenille Collins and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 3 March 2023

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

6. When you discover you've been had - DSS, faux collegiality and the second missed opportunity to stop Robodebt

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 17:00:00 +0930

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the reaction of DSS in early 2017, when it becomes clear DHS hadn't abided by the agreement they thought they had to kill Robodebt.
However, far from handing DHS over to the Ombudsman, DSS engage in a process that looks like ‘a conspiracy to conceal stuff up’, in the inimitable words of Commissioner Holmes.
We discuss how hard it is to check in on the work of other agencies, the unlikely role of Christmas, and the awful impulse to keep things tidy that leads to a cover-up.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

5. How not to stop something - DSS, the Columbia effect, and the first missed opportunity to stop Robodebt

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 17:00:00 +0930

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the tick-tock of how, in late January and early February 2015, DSS went from having legal advice that said Robodebt was unlawful, to waving it through the Budget process.
We discuss how something that is 'not consistent with legislation' is actually 'illegal', and the impacts of softening language on the bowels of ministers.
Alison gives us a primer on the Columbia Effect, and how the over-simplification of technical detail led to a disastrous outcome from a meeting between DSS and DHS on 20th February 2015.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Counsel Assisting, Mr Derek Greggery KC, and Ms Catherine Halbert, 8 December 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

4. Culture on the frontlines - Centrelink and Robodebt

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 17:00:00 +0930

In the second episode of two episodes exploring the culture in DHS and how it contributed to Robodebt, Danielle takes us through the pressures being experienced on the frontline in Centrelink.
From the rise of employee engagement surveys, the use of temporary labour hire, to the decline of unions, this episode explores the importance (and challenge) of knowing what's going on the frontlines.
You can find the Centrelink culture review we discussed here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Mr Scott Britton, 8 November 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

3. Culture from the top - DHS and Robodebt

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 16:00:00 +0930

The first of two episodes looking at the role the culture of DHS played in enabling Robodebt to get off the ground, and keep moving, in spite of all the red flags.
In this episode, Danielle talks us through the ways in which Secretary Kathryn Campbell and her leadership team set the tone, and the efforts of later leaders like Renee Leon to fix the culture.
We discuss our own experiences of trying to improve the culture of teams, and how hard you have to work to make safe spaces.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Tenille Collins, 3 March 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

2. Bright Ideas - the origin of Robodebt

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 16:00:00 +0930

Where did Robodebt come from? In this episode, we track the genesis of Robodebt in the heart of the compliance division in the Department of Human Services in late 2014. This is a cautionary tale about a bright idea that gets fast tracked by senior leadership, who have their own reasons for taking it forward, and aren't very interested in whether what they’re pushing will actually work.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

*Hey, this is one of our early recordings, we’re still getting it together and Caroline had COVID. Stick with us.

Intro grab features Mr Chris Birrer and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 7 November 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

1. What is Robodebt? An explainer

Sat, 01 Jul 2023 16:00:00 +0930

An explainer episode on what Robodebt is, how it unfolded, and why public servants should be interested in finding out more. Far from a political conspiracy, the Robodebt Royal Commission has shown that it was a creature of the public service. Join Alison, Danielle and Caroline, as they reflect on the lessons of Robodebt through the lens of their public service careers.
Credit to Rick Morton for the incisive way he explains Robodebt, which we have cribbed in this episode. You can read his even better description in his Monthly essay here.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

*Hey, this is one of our early recordings, we’re still getting it together and Caroline had COVID. Stick with us.

Intro grab features the Hon Alan Tudge and Commissioner Catherine Holmes

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

The Westminster Tradition

What Makes a Bloody Good Policy Officer?

'Mad Cow Disease' part 2 - a bogus professor and a dead cat

'Mad Cow Disease' part 1 - a crisis without a crime

How to do Big Reform

How It Started v How It’s Going: 3 years of TWT

Buzzword Bingo

Imagine if... you were leading an orchard of bad apples

Imagine if … your sleepy grants program woke up

Inside the public service's ‘Human Handbrake’: why reform stalls and how to fix it

“It’s just a minor restructure” said no calendar ever

Who Really Moved My Cheese? Tales from the change management trenches

Regulator/policy cage fight: ANZSOG National Regulators Community of Practice Conference 2025

The Hon Tom Koutsantonis MP: Lessons from a Veteran Minister

The Billion-Dollar Payroll Disaster: lessons from Queensland Health’s Payroll System

Working from home: when flexibility becomes political

The Radical How: Why one big bet is government’s riskiest move

Tom Loosemore: behind the scenes of the Universal Credit Reset

Rescuing a bin fire: Test and Learn and Universal Credit (Part 2)

From hot mess to delivered: Universal Credit and delivering system wide reform (Part 1)

The Vanstone Files: Unpacking Ministerial Power

The Hon Amanda Vanstone AO - Inside the Westminster Machine

DOGE or GROSS (Getting Rid of Stupid Stuff) 😩: the touchy subject of efficiency in the public service

Picking the Scab of Recruitment - Part 2 'The Employer'

🗳️ Election special 🗳️ Caretaker conventions, IGBs and some 🥳 vox pops 🥳

Picking the Scab of Recruitment - Part 1 'The Applicant'

Oakden aged care scandal part 3 - “Boss on the floor” … or, how bad things stayed secret

REDUX - What the NACC is going on? Updates on Robodebt and the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC)

Oakden aged care scandal part 2 - there’s no $$$ in limbo

Oakden aged care scandal part 1 - good in a crisis (...bad on the follow through)

Ask a Secretary! Mike Kaiser (former) head of the Department of Premier and Cabinet (Qld)

Mike Kaiser, former DG of Department of Premier and Cabinet (Qld)

The State of the Service - drawing the threads from Coombs to Thodey to where we are now

What the NACC is going on? Updates on Robodebt and the National Anti-Corruption Commission

Mr Bates v Post Office part 8 - ‘The One Where The Report is a Slide Deck’

Mr Bates v Post Office part 7 - ‘The One Where The Inquiries Go Nowhere’

TWT Ask Us Anything! Part 2 - culture and integrity agencies

TWT Ask Us Anything! Part 1 - trust in government, and how we organise ourselves

Finally, the APSC has published its findings about Robodebt: what did they find, and where to from here?

Mr Bates v Post Office part 6 - information dead ends and accountability sinks

Mr Bates v Post Office part 5 - prosecuting the innocent

The Hon John Hill, on being a Minister

Andrew Podger AO: Is Thodey public sector reform on Steroids or Valium?

Andrew Podger AO: the induction, tenure and bravery of Secretaries

The Essendon Footy Club supplements scandal (part 3): regulation in a changing world

The Essendon Footy Club supplements scandal (part 2): what’s it like to investigate Australia’s biggest sports codes?

The Royal Commission we should have? The 2013 Essendon Football Club supplements scandal

Sue Vardon AO, inaugural CE of Centrelink: On learning while in the job

Sue Vardon AO, inaugural CE of Centrelink: On lawyers

'Do it now, get it right later': payment (in)accuracy in Centrelink - setting the stage for Robodebt

Mr Bates v Post Office part 4 - the roll out of Horizon

Mr Bates v Post Office part 3 - accepting a lemon

Mr Bates v Post Office part 2 - what happens when a PM is faced with no good choices

Mr Bates v Post Office - shades of Robodebt?

Bonus episode: Sue Vardon AO - inaugural CE of Centrelink (1997-2004)

16. Taking responsibility - lessons from Robodebt

Bonus Episode: Dr Darren O'Donovon on centering the victims of Robodebt, the fragmentation of knowledge and accountability, and the creation of moral discomfort

15. Behavioural insights in Robodebt: at last, an argument!

14. The Grinch that stole Christmas

13. Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learned

12. Robodebt as algorithm (part 3) - Jurassic Park ICT and AI

11. Robodebt as algorithm (part 2) - random number generator decision-making

10. Robodebt as algorithm (part 1) - junk data and Swiss cheese

9. Why is it hard to hear whistleblowers? The lessons from Robodebt

Bonus Episode: The Robodebt Report is out - early thoughts and reflections

8. Advice is just advice - what the lawyers knew about Robodebt

7. 'A bit of a fixer-upper' - DHS and the botched launch of Robodebt

6. When you discover you've been had - DSS, faux collegiality and the second missed opportunity to stop Robodebt

5. How *not* to stop something - DSS, the Columbia effect, and the first missed opportunity to stop Robodebt

4. Culture on the frontlines - Centrelink and Robodebt

3. Culture from the top - DHS and Robodebt

2. Bright Ideas - the origin of Robodebt

1. What is Robodebt? An explainer

5. How not to stop something - DSS, the Columbia effect, and the first missed opportunity to stop Robodebt