Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/08/19/leading-through-invitation-creating-meaningful-participation-flora-bowley/

How do you lead a creative workshop without deciding in advance what participants should create, feel, or discover? Artist and creative guide Flora Bowley designs one-day gatherings with simple prompts and light structure, then leaves enough open space for participants to shape the experience themselves.

Flora Bowley is an artist, author, and creative guide who has spent years facilitating art-based gatherings. Her upcoming tour, The Creative Revolution, brings this approach to a series of one-day events designed to create connection and collaboration through art.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How simple prompts can give a group direction without controlling the outcome
• How to balance structure and free time in a collaborative gathering
• What makes creative collaboration feel alive—and what gets in its way
• Why invitation can create participation so effectively 

Connect with Flora Bowley

Website: https://florabowley.com/

IG: https://www.instagram.com/florabowley/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-to-lead-ai-before-it-leads-you-ai-literacy-elena-filatova/

Most conversations about AI ask "how do we control it?" Sharna Fabiano asks a more useful question: how do you lead AI so it doesn't end up leading you? In this episode, she talks with Elena Filatova about the mechanics behind how AI actually generates answers — and why understanding those mechanics is what keeps a human in the lead role, instead of quietly following whatever the model produces.

Elena Filatova spent seven years at Google in data infrastructure and business intelligence before going independent. She now runs BCB Code Labs, where she builds AI-driven applications and helps businesses automate with AI, and teaches AI literacy.

You'll learn:

•  How one changed word can completely change an AI's response, and the mechanism behind it
• Why AI "hallucinations" aren't mistakes — they're a statistical feature, not a bug, and why that changes how much you should trust an answer
• A simple technique — assigning AI a "persona" — for sharper, more targeted answers
• Why asking AI to "make a list" is a more useful prompt than it sounds
• Where to draw the line between real human-AI collaboration and wasteful "AI slop"

Episode References

Attention is All You Need (2017), Google Research

Connect with Elena

www.bcbcodelabs.com

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/managing-up-how-executive-assistants-shape-executive-decision-making/

What if some of the most influential people in an organization aren't the ones making the final decision? Drawing on his research into executive assistants and his experience designing leadership development for the FDIC, Dr. Basil Read explains how influence flows through conversations, priorities, timing, and access—not just organizational charts. The discussion explores why organizations make better decisions when influence isn't confined to people with formal authority.

Basil Read is a retired U.S. Navy Captain, consultant, and Professor of Practice in Troy University's PhD in Global Leadership program. He designed a leadership development curriculum for employees at every level of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), helping transform the agency from the bottom to the top of employee satisfaction rankings. His research examines how executive assistants shape executive and board decisions through communication, prioritization, and gatekeeping.

You'll learn:

• What managing up really means—and why it's a critical skill for executive assistants and emerging leaders 
• How executive assistants influence executive and board decision making without formal authority 
• Why the FDIC trained every employee—not just managers—and what other organizations can learn from the results 
• How language, timing, and prioritization shape the decisions leaders ultimately make 
• Practical ways to increase your influence, regardless of your title or position 

Episode References 

J. Basil Read, III, “Followership at the FDIC: A Case Study”
https://www.emerald.com/jole/article-pdf/13/4/136/10069009/v13_i4_c14.pdf

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower
https://irachaleffauthor.com/

Connect with Basil Read
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-basil-read-iii-ph-d-a1274b23/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-future-of-leadership-why-great-teams-need-more-than-leaders-robert-kelley/

What if the future of leadership isn't about finding stronger leaders—but about creating better ways for people to work together?

Leadership pioneer Robert Kelley returns to explore how organizations, communities, and citizens are moving beyond traditional leader-follower models toward more collaborative, adaptive ways of solving problems. As political polarization grows and workplaces become more complex, this conversation asks a timely question: What does responsible leadership look like when authority alone is no longer enough?

Robert Kelley is Distinguished Service Professor of Management at Carnegie Mellon University and author of the groundbreaking book The Power of Followership. His research transformed how organizations think about leadership by showing that the quality of collaboration—not just the quality of leaders—determines long-term success. In this conversation, he shares how his thinking has evolved and why the future belongs to organizations that cultivate shared responsibility and collective action. 

You'll learn:

• Why traditional leadership models are becoming less effective in today's world 
• How teams can move beyond manager-subordinate roles 
• How the idea of responsible citizenship is changing 
• How collaborative decision-making strengthens organizations and communities 
• What the next generation of leadership may look like in business and society

Episode References

Strongmen, Ruth Ben-Ghiat

 

Connect with Robert Kelley

www.kelleyideas.com

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/psychological-safety-isnt-only-your-bosss-job-how-teams-actually-build-it-kinsey-hansen/

We usually hear that psychological safety as something leaders create for their teams. In this episode, Sharna explores new research with Dr. Kinsey Hansen that demonstrates something different–that every member of a team has a part in establishing and maintaining it. The co-creation of psychological safety happens in everyday interactions among all team members, not only the formal leader, and shapes the culture of an organization. 

Kinsey is an Associate Professor at Angelo State University, where she serves as Program Coordinator for the Master of Arts in Administrative Leadership and teaches in the Student Development and Leadership program. She is part of the team that designed and launched ASU's Doctorate of Education in Transformative Leadership and now serves as a dissertation chair.

You'll learn:

• Why psychological safety is a shared responsibility, not just a leader’s task
• How every person influences whether others feel free to share their perspective, make mistakes, and challenge established ideas
• Practical ways to create more openness, trust, and collaboration right now

Episode References

Amy Edmondson, The Fearless Organization

Amy Edmondson, Teaming

Global Followership Conference

Connect with Kinsey Hansen
Angelo State University

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-ceos-and-boards-build-trust-the-relationship-that-shapes-organizations-otto-henfling/

The relationship between a CEO and a board of directors can determine whether an organization thrives or struggles. What happens when we start seeing governance as a collaborative relationship?

In this episode, Sharna talks with governance advisor Otto Henfling about the trust, communication, and shared responsibility required for CEOs and boards to work effectively together. They explore why great governance is not just about accountability and oversight—it is about creating the conditions for better decisions, strategic alignment, and mission-driven leadership.

Otto Henfling is a consultant and governance advisor in Australia with more than 20 years of experience in the for-purpose sector, including 15 years as a CEO and extensive board experience. His work focuses on governance, role clarity, risk, and strategic alignment between leaders and the organizations they serve. 

You'll learn:

• How to make the CEO-board relationship an effective partnership
• How trust and open communication improve board effectiveness and decision-making 
• Why CEOs need both leadership authority and the ability to listen strategically 
• How boards can support CEOs without undermining their leadership 
• Why the future of leadership depends on more collaborative relationships

Episode References

Christian Monö, Why We Follow

S2 E21: Natural Followership - Chris Monö

S4 E4: Collaborationship is our Superpower - Chris Monö

Joseph Rost, Leadership for the Twenty-First Century

Global Followership Conferences

www.globalfollowership.com

Connect with Otto Henfling

 Trusted Leadership Consulting: trustedleadership.com.au

 Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/ottohenfling/

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-tango-waits-for-you-chapter-4-night-of-spirits/

The Tango Waits For You is a 4-part documentary series that tells the story of the first year of building a brand-new tango community in Long Beach, California.  It’s both my story, of losing a dream and finding it again, and it’s also a story of dozens of people coming together by chance in a way that feels like it was truly meant to be. It’s a story full of friendship, connection, trust, and discovery, all the things we seek together on the dance floor. Being together in person is so important right now. Whether you dance tango or not, I hope you enjoy these episodes.

Chapter 4: Night of Spirits -  LB Tango hosts its first ritual milonga for the greater LA tango community, in celebration of Dia de los Muertos.

Episode References

“Tar Liom Siar,” written and performed by Moya Brennan, Lynne Earls, and Cormac de Barra. Produced and recorded by Lynne Earls, from the album Timeless. 

Long Beach Tango
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/tango

Altar Milonga (Photos by Andrei Andreev)
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/altar-milonga

Elena's Elixirs
https://elenaselixirs.com/

Altar Society Brewing & Coffee Co.
https://altarsocietybrewco.com/

Mike Cokley, Altar Society General Manager
gm@altarbrands.com

Wisdom of the past (by Elena's Elixers)
Ilegal Joven Mezcal • Largo Bay Coquito Liqueur • Cacao Liqueur • Fresh Lime Juice • Ancho Reyes Chile Liqueur • Egg White • Aztec Cacao Bitters

Garnished with fresh nutmeg and floating marigold

From the high deserts of Oaxaca to the sun-warmed shores of the Caribbean, this cocktail traces an invisible thread through the Americas—where every region honors those who came before. In Mexico, marigolds (cempasúchitl) carpet the paths for Día de los Muertos. Guatemala flies giant barriletes for Día de Todos Los Santos. Bolivia shapes bread into guaguas de pan for Día de Todos los Difuntos. Peru, Ecuador, El Salvador—each has its own name, its own ritual, yet all share the same November vigil.

This drink brings together ingredients with no obvious reason to meet, yet they dance in surprising harmony.

Un Abrazo Final (by Elena's Elixers)
Tequila Reposado • Malbec • Fresh Lime Juice • Grenadine • Araceli Marigold Liqueur • Fernet-Branca

Sea salt rim, finished with a spritz of rose and marigold for fragrance

On Día de los Muertos, the veil between worlds grows thin. The living and the dead draw close—not in sorrow, but in celebration, in one final dance of remembrance. This cocktail honors that tender moment when memory becomes presence, when those we've lost feel near enough to touch.

Salt crystallizes like tears along the rim. Fernet-Branca whispers bitter truths of departure. Grenadine holds the sweetness of stolen moments, while Malbec bleeds with the complexity of love and loss. Tequila and marigold become golden offerings, guiding souls homeward, while rose and marigold scent lingers at the threshold between worlds.

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/beyond-traditional-leadership-how-collaboration-expands-our-capacity-to-lead-sharna-fabiano-amy-lombardo/

This is a reverse interview with coach and author, Amy Lombardo, originally recorded for the podcast, Human Not Hacked.  

What if becoming a better leader is not about gaining more control—but learning how to connect more deeply with yourself and others?

In this conversation, Sharna Fabiano and Amy Lombardo explore a different approach to leadership: one rooted in presence, trust, collaboration, and the ability to move fluidly between leading and supporting. Through the lens of dance, creativity, coaching, and embodied practice, they challenge the idea that leadership is something one person does to others. Instead, they explore leadership as something created between people.

Amy Lombardo is the founder of Brilliance Coaching Academy and a leadership coach who integrates somatic practices, deep listening, and inclusive leadership approaches. Together, Amy and Sharna discuss how releasing the need to always be in control can open new possibilities for authentic leadership, stronger relationships, and greater collective achievement. 

You'll learn:

• How traditional ideas about power and leadership limit what teams can achieve 
• Why the ability to both lead and support others strengthens outcomes
• Why presence and awareness are essential leadership skills 
• How embodied practices can improve communication and connection 
• What happens when we stop trying to control every outcome 
• Why great collaboration requires trust, responsiveness, and openness 
• How expanding your definition of leadership creates new possibilities for teams and communities

Amy Lombardo
https://amylombardo.com/

Brilliance Coaching Academy
https://coach-brilliance.com/

Human, Not Hacked: The Anti-Self Help Podcast
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-human-not-hacked-the-anti-297892497/

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-tango-waits-for-you-chapter-3-community/

The Tango Waits For You is a 4-part documentary series that tells the story of the first year of building a brand-new tango community in Long Beach, California. It’s both my story, of losing a dream and finding it again, and it’s also a story of dozens of people coming together by chance in a way that feels like it was truly meant to be. It’s a story full of friendship, connection, trust, and discovery, all the things we seek together on the dance floor. Being together in person is so important right now. Whether you dance tango or not, I hope you enjoy these episodes.

Chapter 3: Community -  We start teaching two simultaneous classes, add a monthly práctica, and the group dynamic takes on a life of its own.

Episode References

Altar Milonga: Night of Spirits - Monday, Nov. 3
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/tango

Tango Resources & LB Tango Schedule
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/tango

Altar Society Brewing & Coffee Co.
https://altarsocietybrewco.com/

Mike Cokley, Altar Society General Manager
gm@altarbrands.com

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-tango-waits-for-you-chapter-2-altar-society/

The Tango Waits For You is a 4-part documentary series that tells the story of the first year of building a brand-new tango community in Long Beach, California. It’s both my story, of losing a dream and finding it again, and it’s also a story of dozens of people coming together by chance in a way that feels like it was truly meant to be. It’s a story full of friendship, connection, trust, and discovery, all the things we seek together on the dance floor. Being together in person is so important right now. Whether you dance tango or not, I hope you enjoy these episodes.

Chapter 2: Altar Society -  Partnership with a local venue provides an opportunity for Long Beach Tango to expand and grow.

Episode References

Tango Resources & LB Tango Schedule
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/tango

Altar Society Brewing & Coffee Co.
https://altarsocietybrewco.com/

Mike Cokley, Altar Society General Manager
gm@altarbrands.com

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-tango-waits-for-you-chapter-1-the-dream/

The Tango Waits For You is a 4-part documentary series that tells the story of the first year of building a brand-new tango community in Long Beach, California. It’s both my story, of losing a dream and finding it again, and it’s also a story of dozens of people coming together by chance in a way that feels like it was truly meant to be. It’s a story full of friendship, connection, trust, and discovery, all the things we seek together on the dance floor. Being together in person is so important right now. Whether you dance tango or not, I hope you enjoy these episodes.

Chapter 1: The Dream -  After being retired from tango for seven years, Sharna meets four locals at a coffee meetup who want to learn to dance.

Episode References

Tango Resources & LB Tango Schedule
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/tango

Altar Society Brewing & Coffee Co.
https://altarsocietybrewco.com/

Mike Cokley, Altar Society General Manager
gm@altarbrands.com

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-argentine-tango-changes-the-way-we-connect-sharna-fabiano-dan-istrate/

For many people, Argentine tango becomes more than a dance—it becomes a way of experiencing connection, presence, and relationship. In this reverse interview, Sharna Fabiano reflects with actor and director Dan Istrate on her own journey with tango, from her first discovery of the dance to the ways it continues to shape how she understands partnership and human connection.

Sharna Fabiano is the host of Lead & Follow and has spent years exploring tango as a social dance form, performer, teacher, and researcher of embodied collaboration. Dan Istrate, an actor and director originally from Romania, returns to the podcast to help unpack the personal and artistic impact of a dance built on listening, responsiveness, and shared creation.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why Argentine tango creates such a powerful experience of connection between partners.
• How social dance can transform the way people relate to themselves and others.
• What makes improvisation and responsiveness central to tango.
• Why vulnerability is essential to creating genuine connection.
• How tango reveals the balance between initiating, receiving, and adapting.

More with Dan Istrate

S3 E3: How to Have Better Conversations: Presence, Connection, and Social Confidence – Dan Istrate
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/episodes/14781194-connected-social-conversations-dan-istrate

S1 E15: Ensemble Performance: How Actors Create Powerful Scenes Through Collaboration - Dan Istrate
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/episodes/9621693-lead-follow-relationships-in-live-theater-performance-dan-istrate

Connect with Dan Istrate
www.danistrate.com

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/why-employees-choose-to-follow-leaders-culture-and-context-at-work-maike-kugler/

Why do people choose to support a leader in one situation but resist the same person in another? Dr. Maike Kugler challenges the idea that being a leader or a follower is a fixed role or personality trait. Her research explores instead how the choice to follower someone else is something shaped by expectations, relationships, culture, and the specific context in which people are working together.

Maike Kugler researches leadership and followership with a focus on voluntariness, meaning, and relational dynamics. She examines how cultural differences and organizational contexts influence the way people understand their roles, contribute to shared goals, and respond to those who hold formal authority.

You’ll learn:

• Why employees follow some leaders willingly and disengage from others 
• How trust and expectations shape leader–employee relationships 
• Why cultural context changes the meaning of influence and authority 
• How organizations can study leadership relationships beyond simple leader-versus-follower roles 
• Why followership is a social process that changes from one situation to another 

Episode References 

"The (In)voluntary follower," Martin Blom and Mikael Lundgren https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1742715019888078

"Following the beaten paths: a systematic literature review of followership behavior," Maike Kugler and Ruth Sims 
https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/jmd-10-2024-0359/full/html

S1 E4 – Influence of Followership Behaviors on Organizational Success - Ruth Sims
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/episodes/8516582-influence-of-followership-behaviors-on-organizational-success-ruth-sims

 S3 E6 - The 4 Tiers of Followership - Eric McDermott
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/episodes/15254928-the-4-tiers-of-followership-eric-mcdermott

Connect with Maike Kugler

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-maike-kugler

University profile: https://www.ehip.eu/hochschule/team/professoren/prof-dr-maike-kugler/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/toxic-boss-in-tech-the-research-on-what-actually-works-karen-perham-lippman/

Many of us feel powerless when work environments become dysfunctional.  In this episode, Sharna speaks with Dr. Karen Perham-Lippman about her research on toxic leadership in the technology industry and the ways employees respond to it. Karen explains why some people remain silent, why others adapt to survive, and why some individuals choose to challenge the status quo despite personal and professional risks. 

Karen serves as Senior Manager of Global Inclusion and Belonging at Otis Worldwide Corporation. She is a Certified Diversity Professional and has worked with nonprofits, state government, municipal clients, and businesses across diverse industries and sectors globally. She earned her Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) in Organizational Leadership and Business Management from Eastern University.

You'll learn:

• Why workplace cultures can unintentionally enable destructive leadership
• How “Challengers” create positive change in difficult environments
• The role of peer support and communities of coping in maintaining individual well-being
• How organizations can reduce the conditions that allow toxic leadership to persist

About Karen

Dr. Karen Perham-Lippman serves as Senior Manager of Global Inclusion and Belonging at Otis Worldwide Corporation. As a pracademic and mission-driven business strategist with nearly fifteen years of demonstrated strategic and process thinking results in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), ESG, and social impact, she has worked with nonprofits, state government, municipal clients, and businesses across diverse industries and sectors globally. She currently serves as Co-President of the League of Women Voters South Hampton Roads in Virginia and was appointed to the State League’s DEI Committee. 

Karen is a Certified Diversity Professional and holds a certificate in designing equitable courses from the Association of College and University Educators (ACUE). She earned her Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) in Organizational Leadership and Business Management from Eastern University, where she received the College of Business and Leadership's 2025 Student Service Award presented to a graduating student who has exemplified the college and doctoral program's ideals of leadership and scholarship on and off campus through significant contributions to the field. Karen’s scholarship is published with Ethics International Press, Emerald Publishing, Forbes, Merits International Journal, and SAGE Publishing. Her forthcoming book, Bridging Generations: Transformative Intergenerational Leadership and Followership, will be available from Emerald Publishing in Spring 2026.

Episode References

ILA Global Conference in Prague

Connect with Karen

LinkedIn - for general connections

ResearchGate – for research updates or to collaborate 

Forbes Human Resources Council – for writing contributions on Forbes 

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-self-managing-teams-work-collaboration-without-a-single-leader-chris-mono/

What happens when a team stops waiting for someone at the top to make everything happen? Chris Monö explores why effective groups do not always need more direction from leaders—they need shared purpose, mutual responsibility, and the ability to use leadership as a resource rather than a dependency. His work challenges the assumption that every successful team needs a central person guiding every decision.

Chris Monö is an author and consultant based in Sweden who has spent nearly two decades studying leadership and followership from the perspective of the people who choose to participate. He is the creator of the concepts “natural followership” and “collaborationship” and author of Why We Follow: Natural Followership in a World Obsessed with Leadership.

You’ll learn:

• How self-managing teams make decisions without relying on one person to lead everything 
• Why employee ownership matters for creating effective groups 
• How leaders can avoid becoming bottlenecks for their teams 
• What makes people choose to contribute, cooperate, and take responsibility 
• Why collaboration depends on shared purpose more than hierarchy 

Episode References:

Why We Follow: Natural Followership in a World Obsessed with Leadership, by Chris Monö
https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Follow-Followership-Leadership/dp/9198847325

 S2 E21 - Natural Followership - Christian Monö
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/episodes/13838983-natural-followership-christian-mono

 Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/beyond-social-dance-how-tango-builds-connection-through-movement-thomas-rieser/

What happens when the principles of Argentine tango move beyond the dance floor? Thomas Rieser explores how simple tango exercises can help people experience deeper connection, presence, and group awareness—even outside the world of social dance.

Thomas Rieser is the owner of Nou Tango, a tango studio in Berlin, Germany, which recently celebrated its 20-year anniversary. Through two decades of teaching and organizing, he has developed an approach that balances individual growth with the creation of a supportive group culture, revealing how tango can become a practice for human connection and collective learning.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• How tango exercises can be adapted for groups beyond traditional dance settings.
• Why movement and body awareness can reveal new ways of connecting with others.
• How teachers balance individual development with group culture.
• What social dance can teach us about presence, trust, and community.
• Why tango creates experiences of connection that are difficult to explain but easy to feel.

Episode References 

Nou Tango Studio
https://noutango.berlin/ 

Tango Connects Conference
https://tango.connects.berlin/

 S4 E1 - Tango Leadership: How Partnership Replaces Command and Control - Veronica Toumanova
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/episodes/16416925-leading-following-in-the-tango-veronica-toumanova

"Efficacy of Tango Argentino for Cancer-Associated Fatigue and Quality of Life in Breast Cancer Survivors: A Randomized Controlled Trial"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37296883/

Connect with Thomas Rieser

FB: https://www.facebook.com/Thomas.Rieser

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-rieser/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-to-be-an-effective-ally-when-supporting-a-movement-means-following-not-leading-ashton-r-cooper/

What does it mean to support a movement without making yourself the center of it? Dr. Ashton R. Cooper examines this question through his research on White activists who participated in the Black-led Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. His work challenges the assumption that meaningful contribution always requires taking charge, showing how people can often serve a movement best by listening, learning, and following the leadership of those most affected.

Ashton R. Cooper is an Assistant Professor of Higher Education in the School of Education at the University of Cincinnati. His research explores leadership, followership, and social justice in education, including how people build coalitions and disrupt harmful systems through reciprocal, community-centered approaches. His recent work, “Antiracist Followership: Rethinking Social Justice Leadership in Education,” examines how role flexibility can reshape our understanding of influence and responsibility.

You’ll learn:

• Why allyship sometimes requires stepping back rather than taking the lead 
• What White activists in the Civil Rights Movement reveal about responsible support 
• How people with privilege can contribute without centering themselves 
• Why listening to affected communities is essential for meaningful action 
• How leadership roles can shift depending on context, experience, and need 

Episode References

• Ashton R. Cooper (2024) Antiracist followership: rethinking social justice leadership in education, Whiteness and Education, DOI: 10.1080/23793406.2024.2433952 
• Helena Liu, Redeeming Leadership: An Anti-Racist Feminist Intervention. Bristol University Press, 2021
  https://bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/redeeming-leadership
• Robert M. McManus and Gama Perruci, Understanding Leadership: An Arts and Humanities Perspective, Routledge, 2015
  https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Leadership-arts-humanities-perspective/dp/0415728738 
• Say Burgin, Organizing Your Own: The White Fight for Black Power in Detroit, NYU Press, 2024
  https://nyupress.org/9781479814145/organizing-your-own/

Connect with Ashton Cooper

Email: ashton.cooper@uc.edu

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashton-cooper-phd-13595816/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/tango-leadership-how-partnership-replaces-command-and-control-veronica-toumanova/

Argentine tango challenges a common assumption about leadership: that leading means giving commands and following means simply obeying. Tango artist Veronica Toumanova explores how the dance reveals a different model—one based on listening, responsiveness, consent, and a shared conversation between partners.

Veronica Toumanova has spent more than 20 years learning, dancing, teaching, and performing tango internationally. Originally from Russia and now based in Europe, she has taught and performed across Europe and North America, written widely about tango, and published her “Why Tango” essay collections. Her deep technical knowledge of both roles gives her a unique perspective on how tango can reshape our understanding of partnership.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why tango challenges the idea that leadership is about control.
• How partner dance creates a conversation rather than a command structure.
• What tango reveals about listening as a leadership skill.
• Why following requires intention, choice, and active participation.
• How lessons from tango apply to power dynamics in life and work.

Whether you dance tango or work in leadership, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on how influence, trust, and collaboration emerge when people learn to move together.

 Episode References

Tango Connects Conference
(Organising Team: Thomas Rieser, Veronica Toumanova, Juliana Thutlwa, Almut Knauß, and Stefan Knauß)
http://tango.connects.berlin/ 

Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman
https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555

Connect with Veronica

Website - https://verotango.com
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@verotango
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/veronica.toumanova

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/season-4-preview-excerpt-of-my-book/

Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about the need to get away from digital life and back to in person life, and as beautiful as it is to connect online with folks everywhere, it’s also really important to be in both the same time and the same place with others in a full body way. 

So in 2025 I’m planning to teach more in person tango classes. And for the podcast, I plan to bring you more interviews with tango artists sharing their wisdom on embodied leading and following.

In the meantime, I thought I would read for you the Preface from my book, Lead & Follow, which tells a condensed version of my tango origin story. If you haven’t yet picked up a copy, this will give you a sense of where my perspective on leading and following comes from. 

Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork is available anywhere you buy books. If you’re ordering from outside the US, I recommend betterworldbooks.com – they ship to nearly every country.

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/why-great-teams-dont-depend-on-one-leader-the-science-of-shared-influence-ron-riggio/

What changes when we stop assuming the leader is the person who makes things happen and everyone else simply follows? Dr. Ron Riggio explores two decades of followership research showing that effective teams are built through mutual influence, shared responsibility, and the active participation of the people around the leader.

Ron Riggio is the Henry R. Kravis Professor of Leadership and Organizational Psychology and former Director of the Kravis Leadership Institute at Claremont McKenna College, where the first followership conference was held in 2006. His research has helped expand our understanding of how followers contribute to leadership processes, including current work on the anatomy of followership, implicit peer theory, and storytelling approaches to studying group behavior.

You’ll learn:

• Why teams struggle when people assume “the leader knows best” 
• How employees influence outcomes even without formal authority 
• What research reveals about the behaviors of effective team contributors 
• Why leadership is created through relationships, not just individual actions 
• How understanding follower identity can change the way teams work together 

 
Episode References

Claremont McKenna College
https://www.cmc.edu

Art of Followership, by Ronald E. Riggio, Ira Chaleff, & Jean Lipman-Blumen (Eds.)
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Followership-Followers-Leaders-Organizations/dp/0787996653

Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com 

Liu, Z., Riggio, R.E., Reichard, R.J., & Walker, D.O. (2022). Everyday leadership: The construct, its validation, and developmental antecedents. International Leadership Journal, 14(1), 3-35.

Beenen, G., Todorova, G., Pichler, S. & Riggio, R.E. (2022). Reconceptualizing multilevel leader-follower shared outcomes. Journal of Leadership and Organizational Studies, 29(2), 289-305. https://doi.org/10.1177/15480518221094481

Riggio, R.E., Lowe, K.B., & Levy, L. (2023). Why are followers neglected in leadership research.Organization Development Review, 55(3), 44-48.

 Riggio, R.E. (2014). Followership research: Looking back and looking forward.  Journal of Leadership Education, 13, DOI: 10.12806/V13/I4/C4

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-to-recognize-destructive-leadership-before-it-becomes-normal-alain-de-sales/

How does destructive leadership gain influence before people recognize the damage it is causing? Dr. Alain de Sales examines this question through a real-time case study of the 2024 U.S. presidential election cycle, exploring how harmful leadership patterns emerge gradually—and why the choices of those around a leader can shape what happens next.

Alain de Sales teaches at Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business in Brisbane, Australia, where he works with MBA, Executive MBA, and public service management students on leadership and followership. His PhD research explored how courageous actions from those around leaders can interrupt destructive leadership patterns and prevent harmful outcomes.

GSB is among 1% of business schools worldwide to have triple accreditation for excellence from the world's leading accrediting bodies. At GSB Alain teaches leadership (and followership) nationally in the Executive MBA, MBA, and Public Service Management programs along with other executive education programs. 

You’ll learn:

• How destructive leadership can become normalized before people recognize the warning signs 
• Why speaking up and challenging harmful decisions requires courage from those around leaders 
• What organizations can learn from whistleblowing, transparency, and accountability 
• How shared responsibility influences whether destructive leadership continues 
• Why agreement on basic facts matters for rebuilding trust and collective action 

Episode References

S1 E8 – Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales

Queensland University of Technology’s Graduate School of Business

Art Padilla, Robert Hogan, Robert B. Kaiser, “The toxic triangle: Destructive leaders, susceptible followers, and conducive environments,” The Leadership Quarterly, Volume 18, Issue 3, 2007

Project 2025 Presidential Transition Project, The Heritage Foundation
https://www.project2025.org/ 

Join or Die - documentary film
https://www.joinordiefilm.com/

Ira Chaleff, To Stop A Tyrant
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Tyrant-Political-Followers-Leader/dp/1637560567/

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/leading-volunteers-when-nobody-has-to-listen-to-you-eric-kaufman/

Increasingly, leadership is understood as a relational process rather than as an authority granted by a formal title. In this episode, Sharna speaks with Dr. Eric Kaufman about how decision-making happens in community settings. Drawing from his research and experiences with civic organizations, volunteer groups, faith communities, and educational programs, Eric explores how collaboration works when people connect through a shared purpose.

Eric is a professor at Virginia Tech, where he coordinates a graduate certificate in collaborative community leadership and supports an undergraduate minor in leadership and social change.  He also has a partial appointment at Virginia Cooperative Extension, and that role has focused his attention on best practices for working with community members to guide educational programming.  

You'll learn:

• What shared responsibility looks like in volunteer-based groups
• Why many are eager to contribute but hesitant to take on official leadership positions 
• How asking better questions can create more inclusive decision-making
• Why strong communities require both leadership and active participation

Episode References

Kaufman, E. K., Kennedy, R. E., & Cletzer, D. A. (2019). Understanding the Nature of Eco‐Leadership: A Mixed Methods Study of Leadership in Community Organizations. Journal of Contemporary Water Research & Education, 167(1), 33-49.

Graduate Certificate: Collaborative Community Leadership, Department of Agricultural, Leadership, and Community Education, Virginia Tech
https://www.alce.vt.edu/student-info/graduate/commleader.html

Connect with Eric Kaufman 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/erickkaufman/

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/active-listening-what-improvised-music-teaches-about-team-communication-jane-bentley/

How do groups create something meaningful when no one person knows exactly what will happen next? Dr. Jane Bentley’s research on drum circle improvisation reveals that effective collaboration depends on the same skills that help teams communicate: deep listening, responsiveness, and the ability to shift between leading and supporting in real time.

Jane Bentley is a percussionist, drum circle facilitator, and researcher based in Glasgow, Scotland. She completed a PhD on drum circle improvisation and facilitation, exploring how group music-making influences human wellbeing and reveals unique patterns of communication and shared influence. Her work includes long-term collaborations with mental health occupational therapy teams in the UK National Health Service, as well as programs with children, people in hospitals, prisons, and dementia care settings.

You’ll learn:

• How active listening improves teamwork and group communication 
• Why effective collaboration requires people to both contribute and adapt 
• What improvisational music reveals about shared leadership and decision-making 
• How groups create trust when there is no fixed plan or script 
• Why the ability to follow is essential for creating something new together 

Jane’s TEDx Talk
https://www.youtube.com/embed/MQo-1qlKUBE

 Connect with Jane Bentley 

https://artbeatmusic.org/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-bentley-a2550631/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/managing-up-the-4-levels-of-help-your-boss-actually-wants-eric-mcdermott/

What does it mean to be a truly effective contributor? In this episode, Sharna speaks with Eric McDermott about his innovative 4 Tiers of Help framework—a model of learnable behaviors that immediately show you how to become genuinely more helpful to others, not by working more, but by noticing different things and making different choices. Eric developed this framework through decades of his own work in a variety of businesses, including as an equity partner in the financial services industry.

By day, Eric is an equity partner at a financial services firm with more than 60,000 clients. But behind the suit, in his other company, Eric was named "Best Business Influencer of the Year" winning two Stevies (the Oscars of the business world) for his social media channels. He is also a USA Today and Amazon best-selling author, and has numerous published Forbes articles.

You'll learn:

• Why helping others succeed is a direct way to be recognized and promoted
• What help looks like from the leading role vs from the following role 
• How to decide what kind of help is most appropriate in the moment

Episode References

• S2 E21 – Natural Followership with Chris Monö
• https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13838983-natural-followership-christian-mono
•  Leadership is Only Half the Equation, Forbes
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinesscouncil/2023/08/14/leadership-is-only-half-the-equation/
•  Four Tiers of Help, Forbes
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinesscouncil/2021/07/19/four-tiers-of-help-for-unlocking-career-and-team-success/
• Eric McDermott, Team Amplifiers: 8 Ways Teams Thrive in Rapid Change
• https://www.amazon.com/Team-Amplifiers-Teams-Thrive-Change-ebook/dp/B0BWXGD1P9
• Eric McDermott, Career Amplifiers: A Field Guide for Getting Ahead
• https://www.amazon.com/Career-Amplifiers-Field-Guide-Getting-ebook/dp/B0CLGLJK1M

Connect with Eric McDermott

Nextpectations
https://access.nextpectations.com/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/beyond-obedience-influencing-outcomes-without-formal-authority-paul-mcgachey/

How do you support a leader’s mission while still challenging assumptions, offering feedback, and influencing decisions? Paul McGachey explores the often-misunderstood role of strategic followers—people who may not hold the final authority but still have a responsibility to shape outcomes. Drawing from his military experience and research, he examines how courageous influence strengthens organizations when people refuse to become passive observers.

Paul McGachey is a scholar-practitioner with 18 years of experience in the United States military and is currently pursuing a PhD in Education and Human Resources at Colorado State University. His research focuses on followership and scenario planning, a strategic tool that uses multiple possible futures to improve decision-making and organizational action.

You’ll learn:

• How to influence leaders when you do not have formal authority 
• Why speaking up and challenging decisions can be an act of commitment, not opposition 
• How strategic followers build trust with leaders through feedback and results 
• Why passive agreement can weaken organizations and missions 
• How scenario planning helps teams challenge assumptions and prepare for uncertainty 

 
Episode References 

• Robert Kelley, Power of Followership - https://www.amazon.com/Power-Followership-Robert-Kelley/dp/0385413068
• Robert Kelley, “In Praise of Followers,” Harvard Business Review - https://hbr.org/1988/11/in-praise-of-followers
• Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower - https://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/dp/1605092738 

Connect with Paul McGachey

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulmcgachey/
• Email: paulmcgachey@gmail.com

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-focus-your-email/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Focus your email.

I recently received an auto-responder email message from a colleague that read, and I’m not kidding about this, QUOTE “I’m out of the office this week, and your message will be deleted. If you’d like a response, please re-send your message after next Monday when I return.” UNQUOTE

Your message will be deleted. 

This is probably the most extreme example I’ve seen of email management, but I share it to illustrate the point. We are all drowning in an excessive flood of email. You probably receive hundreds of messages a week, maybe hundreds a day, and there’s no way you can read them all. 

In fact, in addition to the latest spam blockers and content filters, there is still a certain amount of time and effort required to figure out what email you need to read, before you actually read any of it. 

So, knowing this situation, you can make it easier for your coworkers to read and respond to your messages with a couple of guidelines. These won’t work in all situations, but they will cover you for the majority of everyday work exchanges.

First, whenever possible, follow the rule of one topic per message. This makes it easy for people to organize your message by category and especially by time sensitivity. If you ask someone for two pieces of information, one of which you need today and the other of which you need next week, that makes your message harder to organize and you’ll probably get either one or neither of your questions answered. If you send them separately, not only is each one shorter, which is almost always better, but the person will have an easier time mentally dropping them into the appropriate buckets, and responding to them in the appropriate time-frame.

Second, if you do have several related questions pertaining to the same project or the same deadline, use a numbered list so that your reader can more quickly and easily take in what you are asking. You’ll often get an itemized response in return, following your original list, which also makes it easier for you.

Third, whenever possible, keep your messages to five sentences or less, stating your purpose, your request, and any time constraints.  If you have additional relevant reference material, attach them or list them below your main message, separated by an asterisk or some other obvious character. Too much text is overwhelming, and people will. not. read it, especially if it’s not necessary. There is definitely a skill to writing concisely, and it’s most definitely a valuable one that you want to have no matter what your work environment. I promise that once you start restricting yourself to five sentences, it will get easier and easier.

And finally, fourth, being crisp and focused does not mean being rude. It’s still important to be polite and positive even while you avoid unnecessary explanations or “filler” language. Remember to use the person’s name at the top of your message, and include a thank you at the end. Here’s a quick tip within a tip: include Thank you, or Thanks in your automatic signature.

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/resolve-workplace-conflict-the-power-of-both-and-thinking-lindsay-burr/

What if workplace conflict is not a sign that something is broken—but a signal that important perspectives are being left out? Lindsay Burr introduces Polarity Thinking, a framework for working with competing viewpoints instead of choosing sides. She explores how leaders and teams can hold tension, uncover shared goals, and make better decisions together.

Lindsay Burr is CEO of the Yarbrough Group and based in Washington, DC. She has worked across business contexts, international political spaces, and U.S. policy and elections, helping people understand the systems they are part of and identify more effective ways to work within them.

You’ll learn:

• How to handle disagreement at work without shutting down different perspectives 
• Why some conflicts are actually competing values that require a both/and approach 
• How leaders can create space for honest feedback and productive tension 
• How Polarity Thinking reveals the strengths and limitations of opposing viewpoints 
• How people can hold different views while still working toward shared goals 

Episode References

Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com

4-Day Training with Lindsay at the CPSI Conference June 23-27, 2024
https://cpsiconference.com/

Polarity Map Download (scroll down to the bottom of the page)
https://www.yarbgroup.com/publications

S2 E 14 - Simultaneous Leading and Following in Complex Organizations - Chris Fuzie
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13112770-simultaneous-leading-and-following-in-complex-organizations-chris-fuzie


Connect with Lindsay Burr

Yarbrough Group - https://www.yarbgroup.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsayyburr/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-visual-focus/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Visual focus. 

In most Western contexts, eye contact signals to the other person that you are paying attention to them. A lack of eye contact can signal the opposite: disconnection, dismissal, or disinterest. Just think about the last time you tried to share information or ask a question of someone who was looking at their screen, at their phone, or out the window. You may have had to repeat yourself because they literally didn’t hear you.

On stage, the quickest way to move the audience’s focus from one place to another is for the performers to deliberately look in the new direction. 

The exception to this guideline of course is when you’re both looking at the same thing and talking about that thing, a power point slide, a white board, or maybe a beautiful sunset.

In a physical sense, our thoughts tend to follow our visual gaze. That doesn’t mean you can’t look at someone and be thinking about the laundry or some urgent deadline, but it’s harder. 

In general, wherever you look, that’s what you’ll be thinking about. This is part of how the scrolling feature on your phone traps your thoughts – by trapping your eyes.

So the tip this week is to look at the person you are speaking to or listening to. 

It sounds simple, but it can feel uncomfortable if you are not used to it, or if you have a challenging history with the other person, or if you’re just feeling distracted or rushed.

One way to help yourself focus visually is to remove distractions. Put your phone away, put down anything you’re carrying, and if you can, sit down in a chair facing the person. If you can’t do that, angle your body toward them as much as you can. Sitting actually lowers your heart rate and it’s a quick way to narrow your field of vision.

You can also tidy up your own space or your desk or your Zoom background so that it’s easier for other people to look at you. Here’s another Zoom tip that completely changed my life. Turn off self-view box, so that you cannot see yourself. Likewise, in shared physical spaces, remove any mirrors. Seeing yourself is incredibly distracting.

If you still have trouble maintaining visual focus, ask yourself, what are you feeling or thinking that’s making it hard? Are you self-conscious about your appearance? Do you need to clear the air with this particular person?  

Address any internal discomfort over visual focus at a separate time, in a way that feels appropriate and meaningful to you. If you’re not sure how to do that, start with some private journaling.

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-take-turns/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Take turns. 

One summer I attended a large afternoon bbq, and a person I’d just met walked over and asked me about my work. Perfectly normal, right? But then he interrupted me before I could finish, and asked me another question. So, I started answering the new question, and then he interrupted again. Another question. Finally, I had to not answer at all and instead ask him a question just to break the pattern. 

You might be able to imagine how irritating this rapid fire question asking can be, especially at a relaxing afternoon party, and also how little interest you would probably have in spending more time with that person in the future. 

One reason interrupting is irritating is that it makes us feel that the other person isn’t listening. To feel connected, we need to be heard, whether we’re at a bbq or in a work meeting. When someone doesn’t feel heard, they instinctively pull away. They don’t want to talk or share or help or collaborate. Repeated interruption is basically a disconnection device.

Now, once in a while, if it’s really important and if it’s done calmly and for a good reason, interrupting someone is actually fine. It’s when we do it a lot and without clear purpose that it can be damaging to relationships.

So, as a proactive measure, the habit of taking turns can improve your relationships by preventing interruptions and increasing the chances that people around you feel heard and are therefore more comfortable and willing to connect with you. 

Taking turns means that when someone else is speaking, wait until they are completely finished before responding or before asking another question. 

If for some reason you need to interrupt, acknowledge that you are interrupting by saying something simple like, “Forgive me for interrupting but the wedding cake is being served right now, let’s go have some.” Or even, “I’m sorry to interrupt but I have another meeting at the top of the hour. Thank you so much for your time.” This will preserve the connection you have with that person.

If you aren’t sure if the person is finished, you can ask, “Are you finished?” The urgent fast-paced flow of many workplaces can sometimes make it tempting to interrupt, assume you know what’s going to be said, or discount the response entirely. That’s a connection killer, and if you do this too much, you may have to start all over again building your connection with that person. 

The need to be heard is so strong that even if you think you DO already know what the person is going to say, it’s still important that you hear them say it.

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-to-have-better-conversations-presence-connection-and-social-confidence-dan-istrate/

What makes a conversation feel effortless, meaningful, and alive? Actor and director Dan Istrate explores the hidden skills behind human connection: presence, responsiveness, and the ability to move between expressing yourself and truly receiving another person. Drawing from decades of work in theater and cross-cultural communication, Dan reveals how every interaction is a shared creation rather than a performance we have to control.

Dan Istrate grew up in Romania and has lived in the United States for 25 years. As an actor and director, he has experienced thousands of moments of cultural translation and miscommunication while collaborating on stage and screen. His work explores how people connect across differences through attention, play, and authentic presence.

You’ll learn:

• How to feel more comfortable and present in everyday conversations 
• Why trying to control how others perceive you can limit connection 
• How listening and responsiveness create better interactions 
• What performers understand about reading the energy of a conversation 
• How social connection depends on both expressing yourself and making space for others 

Episode References
S1 E 15 - Lead/Follow Relationships in Live Theater Performance - Dan Istrate
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9621693-lead-follow-relationships-in-live-theater-performance-dan-istrate 

Connect with Dan Istrate:

Website: www.danistrate.com

IG: @DanIstrateDC

FB: Dan.Istrate.796

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-ordinary-people-influence-leaders-through-collective-action-yulia-tolstikov-mast/

Can people without formal authority influence the decisions of powerful leaders? Dr. Yulia Tolstikov-Mast explores how collective action, shared values, and individual choices can shape outcomes far beyond traditional leadership structures. Using examples of global movements—including how messages initiated by groups such as soccer players can be amplified into broader social change—Yulia examines why influence does not only flow from the top down.

Yulia Tolstikov-Mast, Ph.D., is a global leadership and followership scholar, award-winning researcher, and educator. Her work explores global citizenship behaviors, non-Western approaches to leadership, leader–contributor role switching, and how cultural contexts shape the way people participate in collective efforts. She is the editor of The Handbook of International and Cross-Cultural Leadership Research Processes and served as Co-Investigator in Russia for the GLOBE 2020 Research Project.

You’ll learn:

• How people without formal authority can influence leaders and institutions 
• Why collective action becomes powerful when individuals amplify shared messages 
• What it means to see yourself as an active participant in global communities 
• How culture shapes ideas about leadership, influence, and participation 
• Why organizations and societies need engaged contributors, not passive supporters 

Episode References

Tolstikov-Mast, Y. (2016). Global followership: The launch of the scholarly journey. In J. S. Osland, M. Li, & Y. Want (Eds.), Advances in Global Leadership (Vol. 9, pp. 109-150). Bingley, UK: Emerald.

Tolstikov-Mast, Y., & Aghajanian, C. (2023). Intersectional approach to combating human trafficking: Applying an Interdisciplinary Global Leader-Follower Collaboration Paradigm. In: Dhiman, S.K., Marques, J., Schmieder-Ramirez, J., Malakyan, P.G. (eds) Handbook of Global Leadership and Followership. Springer.
https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-75831-8_38-1

"What is Global Leadership?"
https://blog.utc.edu/mark-mendenhall/files/2015/05/World-Financial-Review_What-is-Global-Leadership.pdf

"10 socially-conscious players who showed footballers don’t need to 'stick to sport'"
https://www.squawka.com/en/socially-conscious-footballers-dont-need-to-stick-to-sport/

Title IX Company
https://www.titlenine.com/who-we-are.html

Mighty Be Our Powers: How Sisterhood, Prayer, and Sex Changed a Nation at War, by Leymah Gbowee
https://www.amazon.com/Mighty-Be-Our-Powers-Sisterhood/dp/0984295194 

National Whistleblower Center
https://www.whistleblowers.org/how-whistleblowers-changed-the-world/

 Global Followership Conference
www.followershipconference.com

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Connect with Yulia Tolstikov-Mast
https://www.linkedin.com/in/yulia-tolstikov-mast-ph-d-b8b18611/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/navigating-ethical-dilemmas-at-work-kyle-payne/

Most of us like to believe we'd make the ethical choice. But in the moment, competing pressures—loyalty, fear of consequences, career ambitions, or uncertainty about what's right—can make ethical decisions far more complicated than they appear. In this episode, Sharna talks with Dr. Kyle Payne about why good people sometimes stay silent, what makes it difficult to challenge authority, and how individuals can respond with integrity when faced with questionable decisions or behavior.

Kyle works in technical services at the American Welding Society, teaches in the Heller College of Business at Roosevelt University, and supports clients with Development Dimensions International and his own consultancy, Quality Culture. He has a PhD in human capital management and master’s degrees in philosophy, education, and business. 

You'll learn:

• Why ethical dilemmas at work are often more complicated than they seem
• The barriers that keep people from speaking up
• How employees can influence ethical leadership without formal authority
• Strategies for responding to difficult situations 
• Why creating ethical organizations is a shared responsibility—not just a leader's job

Research References 

• Mary Uhl-Bien, Ronald E. Riggio, Kevin B. Lowe, Melissa K. Carsten. Followership theory: A review and research agenda. The Leadership Quarterly, Volume 25, Issue 1, 2014, Pages 83-104.
•  Carsten, M. K., & Uhl-Bien, M. (2013). Ethical Followership: An Examination of Followership Beliefs and Crimes of Obedience. Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies, 20(1), 49-61.
•  Chaleff, I. (2009). The courageous follower: Standing up to and for our leaders (3rd ed.). Berret-Koehler Publishers.
• Hernandez, M., & Sitkin, S. B. (2012). Who is leading the leader? Follower influence on leader ethicality. In D. D. Cremer, & A. E. Tenbrunsel (Eds.), Behavioral business ethics: Shaping an emerging field (pp. 81-104). Routledge. 
• Kassing, J. (2011). Dissent in organizations. Polity Press.
• Payne, Kyle (2024) "“Making Room for Followers: A Grounded Theory Study of Ethical Followership Among Professional Engineers”," The International Journal of Ethical Leadership: Vol. 11, Article 6.

Other References 

• Kasia Urbaniak, Unbound
•  S1 E8: How Courageous Followers can stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
•  Global Followership Conference

Connect with Dr. Kyle Payne:

 Website: http://www.kylepaynephd.com

 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-payne-phd-98567b50/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/season-3-preview-sharna-fabiano/

Hi Everyone, this is Sharna. I’ve spent the beginning of the year in a resting phase with the podcast, letting the new season slowly take shape in my mind. New episodes are coming soon, in early March, and I’m hoping this little preview will give you a sense of how I’m thinking about season 3 as a collection of conversations.

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Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden
The Ezra Klein Show
 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/democrats-have-a-better-option-than-biden/id1548604447?i=1000645559771

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/three-compelling-ideas-for-2024-sharna-fabiano/

In this short, end-of year episode, host Sharna Fabiano reflects on season 2 and shares three  compelling lead and follow ideas to try out in your own life and work in 2024. Please send feedback on Season 2 along with suggestions for Season 3 directly to Sharna at sharna@sharnafabiano.com.

Special thanks to Glover Gill for providing our music.

Lead & Follow, by Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/book/

The FREE Lead & Follow  Skill Sheet
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/book/

Unbound: A Woman's Guide to Power, by Kasia Urbaniak
https://www.kasiaurbaniak.com/unbound-book

S1 E 23: The Necessity of Followership in Peace Building – Pedro Portela
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/10291927-the-necessity-of-followership-in-peace-building-pedro-portela

S1 E12: Followership Skills as Part of Professional Development - Brian Rook
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9075187-followership-skills-as-part-of-professional-development-brian-rook

S1 E8: Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/toxic-workplace-culture-why-people-follow-bad-leaders-and-how-to-change-it-wendy-m-edmonds/

Why do people continue supporting harmful leaders, even when they recognize destructive behavior? Dr. Wendy M. Edmonds explores toxic followership—the repeated choices and behaviors that allow damaging leadership patterns to continue. Her research challenges the idea that only leaders create organizational problems and reveals how people at every level can recognize and use their own power to influence what happens next.

Dr. Wendy M. Edmonds is Interim Chair of the Management, Marketing, and Public Administration Department in the College of Business at a Historically Black University and Co-Chair of the Global Followership Conference 2024. An internationally recognized researcher on toxic followership, she describes herself as a Workplace Toxicologist focused on understanding harmful patterns and creating more constructive ways of working together. Her teaching uses popular media and experiential role plays to help people examine leadership and followership choices.

You’ll learn:

• How toxic workplace cultures develop and continue over time 
• Why followers play a critical role in reinforcing or interrupting harmful leadership 
• How people can recognize their own power even without formal authority 
• What repeated destructive behavior reveals about toxic followership 
• How classroom conversations and role play can change the way people understand power and responsibility 

Episode References

CNN: Escape From Jonestown
https://vimeo.com/244066619

 
 S1 E8- Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales

 Time of Essence documentary - the story of Essence Magazine
https://www.oprah.com/app/time-of-essence-full-episodes.html

Self-made TV series – inspired by the life of Madame CJ Walker
https://www.netflix.com/title/80202462

Intoxicating Followership, by Wendy M Edmonds
https://www.amazon.com/Intoxicating-Followership-Jonestown-Wendy-Edmonds/dp/1800714599

Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com

Connect with Dr. Wendy M. Edmonds
https://www.drwendymedmonds.com/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/leading-under-pressure-how-the-british-army-uses-followership-to-build-better-teams-langley-sharp/

What makes a team effective when the stakes are high and there is no room for individual performance to overshadow the mission? Langley Sharp explains why the British Army is making followership more explicit in its leadership doctrine—and why successful command depends on people who can both take initiative and support others when needed.

Langley Sharp is the former head of the Centre for Army Leadership, where he championed leadership development across the British Army. A graduate of Sandhurst, he served for two decades in the Parachute Regiment, with operational deployments including Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. He is the author of The Habit of Excellence, the British Army’s official account of leadership, and founder of Frontier Leadership.

You’ll learn:

• Why mission command depends on people who can lead and follow effectively 
• How high-performing teams know when roles should shift between leading and supporting 
• Why individual excellence is not enough for complex missions 
• What military organizations can teach businesses about trust and decision-making 
• How making followership explicit changes leadership training and culture 

 
Episode References

> Langley Sharp, The Habit of Excellence

> British Army Doctrine Note on Followership

> Centre for Army Leadership Conference 2023 - Creating Effective Followership

“Freedom, however, is not the last word. Freedom is only part of the story and half of the truth. Freedom is but the negative aspect of the whole phenomenon whose positive aspect is responsibleness. In fact, freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness.”
–Frankl. V.E. (1992). Man’s Search for Meaning, 4th edition. Boston: Beacon Press, 134.

Kelley R.E., The Power of Followership: How to Create Leaders People Want to Follow and Followers Who Lead Themselves, New York: Doubleday, 1992

Chaleff, I. (1995). The courageous follower: Standing up to and for our leaders. San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler Publishers.

"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.”
–Rudyard Kipling, The Jungle Book

Connect with Langley Sharp

https://frontierleadership.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/langley-sharp/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-to-develop-frontline-leaders-who-solve-problems-without-waiting-for-answers-david-elser/

What happens when experienced employees have the knowledge to solve problems, but organizational habits teach them to wait for direction? David Elser draws from more than 30 years in the transportation industry to explore how leaders can step back at the right moments and create space for employees — from frontline workers to executives — to contribute solutions.

David Elser, author of Doing the Chores, shares his concept of smart followership through personal stories of growing up on a small family farm in northwest Ohio. He is a learning and development professional based in Coldwater Lake, Michigan, with over 30 years of experience in the transportation industry. He works with employees at all levels, from essential front-line workers to executive leaders. David has a master's degree in organizational management and is a Certified Professional Coach.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How to develop employee initiative in frontline teams
• Why effective delegation requires leaders to step back sometimes
• How talent development programs can teach employees to provide meaningful support
• What supervisors can do to help employees become better problem-solvers
• How leaders can balance giving direction with creating ownership

Episode References

Shirtless Dancing Guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ

Trust, Followership, and Leadership in Non-Profit Change Processes - Tom Klaus
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9340458-trust-followership-and-leadership-in-non-profit-change-processes-tom-klaus

Training Everyone in Both Leadership and Followership – Samantha Hurwitz
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13325495-training-everyone-in-both-leadership-and-followership-samantha-hurwitz

 HR Perspective on Followership and Leadership Training - Julie Newman
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13364704-hr-perspective-on-followership-and-leadership-training-julie-newman

Connect with David Elser

Doing the Chores Website
https://doingthechores.com

Doing the Chores Book (adults)
https://a.co/d/esqqdoS

Doing the Chores Book (kids)
https://a.co/d/9QvryVq

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/FollowSmart

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-r-elser-5a17655
 

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/use-your-voice-how-informal-leaders-shape-better-decisions-david-scott/

Who gets recognized as a leader inside an organization — only the people with executive titles, or also the employees who influence decisions, shape culture, and move a purpose forward? David Scott explores how organizations can identify and value informal leadership, drawing from his research on how leadership emerges beyond formal roles.

David Scott is a PhD Researcher at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, Scotland, exploring Followership Salience as a factor of Leadership in Organisations. He is also a Visiting Lecturer in Business at Leeds Trinity University. David is a highly experienced Company Director and Charity Trustee with a particular interest in creating positive environmental and social change through people. He is Co-Chair of the 2024 Global Followership Conference hosted by the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How organizations can identify leadership potential beyond job titles
• Why employee voice matters when making strategic decisions
• How informal leaders can influence executive teams and boards
• What inclusive leadership structures can learn from UN Sustainable Development Goals
• Why stepping into a supporting role can strengthen your ability to lead

Episode References

Jimmy Collins, Creative Followership
https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Followership-Greatness-Jimmy-Collins/dp/1929619480

Philip Meilinger, “The 10 Rules of Good Followership”
https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/10_Followship_Rules_Meilinger.pdf

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower: Standing up To and For our Leaders
https://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/dp/1605092738

Edmonstone, J. (2003), "Learning and development in action learning: the energy investment model", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 35 No. 1, pp. 26-28.

Mango, E. (2018) 'Rethinking Leadership Theories'. Open Journal of Leadership, 7 (01), pp. 57-88.

Barbara Kellerman
https://barbarakellerman.com/

Julian B. Rotter, Locus of Control
https://www.simplypsychology.org/locus-of-control.html

Connect with David Scott
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhunterscott/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-surprisingly-intuitive-nature-of-self-organizing-teams-christian-mono/

For thousands of years, humans organized in small groups where influence emerged through trust, shared purpose, and expertise rather than formal authority. Christian Monö explores what modern organizations can learn from these patterns — and why creating more freedom inside teams may lead to stronger decision-making and ownership.

Christian Monö is a Speaker, Author and Sweden’s first and only followership expert. In more than 15 years of research and practice, he has explored what he calls “natural followership,” including how human ancestors self-organized in egalitarian band societies and what these lessons reveal about today’s leadership industry. Among Chris’ clients are the Swedish Armed Forces, and he has a new book coming out in English in 2024.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How self-organizing teams make decisions without constant direction from a manager
• Why employees resist environments where they feel they lack autonomy
• What ancient human group behavior reveals about modern organizations
• How leaders can create conditions where initiative emerges naturally
• Why shared purpose can sometimes guide teams more effectively than top-down vision 
  
  

Episode References

Robert Kelley, Power of Followership

Valve Software
https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/

 Buurtzorg
https://www.buurtzorg.com/
https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2017/may/09/buurtzorg-dutch-model-neighbourhood-care

 Björn Lundén Information
https://bjornlundenblogg.se/sv/mina-bocker/2021/10/sim-metoden/

Connect with Chris Monö

Website - https://www.followership.se/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-monoe/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/followership.se/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/student-leadership-development-teaching-ethical-decision-making-fatema-haque-and-dorine-lawrence-hughes/

Most leadership education focuses on how to become a leader. Fatema Haque and Dorine Lawrence-Hughes explore what happens when students are also taught how to participate responsibly in groups, make independent choices, and hold leaders accountable. Through their work at the University of Michigan, they are introducing students to a broader understanding of leadership that includes agency, critical thinking, and ethical action.

Fatema Haque is Academic Program Manager and LEO Adjunct Lecturer at the Barger Leadership Institute at the University of Michigan. Dorine Lawrence-Hughes is Assistant Dean of Undergraduate Education at the University of Michigan. Together, they are involved in integrating followership education into the Barger Leadership Institute curriculum to prepare students for professional and community environments where collaboration, accountability, and judgment matter.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why leadership programs need to teach students how to question and support decisions
• How student agency changes the way young people approach group work
• What ethical participation looks like before someone holds formal authority
• How universities can prepare students for real-world teamwork and decision-making
• Why students often find the idea of responsible participation surprisingly powerful

Episode Resources 

Barger Leadership Institute, University of Michigan
https://lsa.umich.edu/bli

Barbara Kellerman, Bad Leadership
https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Leadership-Happens-Matters-Common/dp/1591391660

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower
https://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/dp/1605092738

Basil Read, Read & Read Leadership and Management Consultants, LLC
https://www.read-read.com/

Marc and Samantha Hurwitz, Leadership is Half the Story
http://www.teachingfollowerscourage.com

Brazen Communication
https://brazencommunication.com/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-leadership-skills-engineers-need-before-they-have-the-title-erica-dawson/

Engineers are trained to solve difficult problems, but technical expertise alone does not determine whether a team succeeds. Erica Dawson explores why engineers need the ability to influence, challenge ideas, and contribute from any position — not only when they hold formal leadership roles. Through her work developing engineering leadership education at Cornell University, she has helped students understand that effective teams depend on active participation from everyone.

Erica Dawson is Professor of Practice and Nancy and Bob Selander Executive Director of the Engineering Leadership Programs at Cornell University. She previously served as a professor at the Yale School of Management, founded the US-Israel Center for Innovation and Economic Sustainability at UC San Diego, and has taught ethical leadership internationally through the Dalai Lama Center for Ethics and Transformative Values at MIT.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why engineering leaders need influence skills beyond technical expertise
• How to build the ability to challenge and support decisions from any role
• Why disengaged team members create hidden costs for organizations
• How engineering programs can prepare students for real-world teamwork
• What “influencing without authority” looks like in technical environments

Episode References

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower
https://irachaleffauthor.com/books-the-courageous-follower/

Cornell Engineering Leadership Programs
https://leadership.engineering.cornell.edu/

S1 E5: Amy Lombardo
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8586603-a-model-of-equitable-leading-and-following-in-the-coaching-relationship-amy-lombardo

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-strategic-choice-most-leaders-overlook-when-to-step-up-and-when-to-support-david-leitner/

When people think about strategy, they often focus on the person making the decision. Dr. David Leitner explores a different question: what happens when people intentionally choose how to support, challenge, and advance a shared purpose? Drawing from his work with companies, military organizations, and communities, David examines how strategic support shapes outcomes at every level.

Dr. David Leitner has spent the last 15 years as a followership, leadership, and strategy educator. He teaches these topics through workshops, seminars, and lectures for multinational companies, the Israeli Defense Forces, military preparation academies, youth groups, and other organizations. As an IDF disabled veteran and longtime advocate for accessibility and inclusion, David brings a perspective shaped by both strategic thinking and lived experience.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why supporting a decision can be an active choice rather than passive agreement
• How leaders can recognize contribution from people outside formal authority
• Why teams lose valuable input when everyone wants to be the person in charge
• How strategic support applies beyond organizations to communities and relationships

Episode References 

Robert Kelley, "In Praise of Followers," HBR 1998 

Barbara Kellerman, "What Every Leader Needs to Know about Followers," HBR 2007

S1 E20 - Listening as a Core Followership Skill - Eran Magen

Connect with Dr. David Leitner
Website: https://www.drdleitner.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleitner/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/david.a.leitner

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/beyond-the-visionary-leader-the-people-who-make-organizations-succeed-nixon-jallo/

A great vision is only the beginning. Nixon Jallo explores what happens after the vision is created — when people throughout an organization choose to contribute their skills, judgment, and commitment to bring that vision to life. Drawing from his work in ministry, business consulting, and organizational leadership, Nixon examines why the people who execute ideas are essential to lasting success.

Nixon Jallo is Husband, Father, Chief Executive of FOLDEVIN Consults Ltd., Bishop of Supernatural Love Ministries, Rector of Agape Bible College, Writer and Researcher based in Jalingo, Taraba State, Northeast Nigeria. He holds a Master’s degree in Theology and is completing another in Organizational Leadership. He is the author of several books on followership, including Principles of Followership, Understanding Followership, and Leadership Fusion.

You’ll learn:

• How organizations can recognize the skills of the people who carry ideas forward
• What humility and responsibility look like in a team role
• How leadership and participation change at different levels of an organization
• Why successful communities depend on people who actively contribute

Principles of Followership, by Nixon Jallo

https://www.amazon.com/PRINCIPLES-FOLLOWERSHIP-NIXON-JALLO/dp/B08SRFBW4B/
 

Nixon Jallo on LinkedIn
 https://www.linkedin.com/in/nixon-jallo-a60a4b27/

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-inner-orientation/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Choose an inner orientation. 

This technique is also called choosing a mindset or an intention. I’m calling it an inner orientation because I want you to use it as a deliberate and methodical way to orient to people and situations you are in.

Most of the time, our inner state is reactive, and we’re not really choosing it. You like some people and dislike others. You feel comfortable or uncomfortable, inspired or bored, and you attribute those inner states to external circumstances. That’s a normal process AND at the same time, we have the ability as humans to choose a specific way of orienting from the inside.

For example, if you’re thinking about how you want to orient in an upcoming meeting, you might choose a quality like receptivity, openness, curiosity, or any other quality that will help you participate in a positive and productive way. Different situations may call for different orientations, especially if you are switching back and forth between leadership and followership functions throughout your day, as many of us do.

When you choose your inner orientation, make sure you take a moment to feel it in your body, and to notice what it feels like, so you can track yourself, and remind yourself to return to being receptive or curious or open when you find yourself becoming distracted. 

Practice sitting, standing, and walking in a way that you can feel this quality in your body and recognize it.

This tip may sound super simple, but I assure you, it is one of the most powerful techniques I teach. When you embody positive inner states on a regular basis, you’ll feel more comfortable in your own skin, communication will become clearer, and relationships with the people around you will begin to improve.

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/from-hr-policy-to-employee-partnership-rethinking-how-organizations-develop-people-julie-newman/

How can an HR professional help an organization create a culture where employees see themselves as contributors to decisions, not just recipients of direction? Julie Newman shares what she learned while coordinating the implementation of leadership and followership training for a nonprofit client — and why HR professionals need to model the same balance they ask of others: providing guidance while remaining open to employee perspectives, feedback, and expertise.

Julie Newman is a Certified Human Resources Leader in Ontario, Canada, with 15 years of experience across organizational culture, performance management, recruitment, employee relations, and health and safety. Before transitioning into HR consulting, Julie spent more than 11 years in senior leadership roles within the nonprofit sector, bringing a practical understanding of how people systems shape organizational culture.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How nonprofit organizations can design leadership development programs that include employees at every level
• Why HR professionals must balance being strategic advisors with being responsive partners
• How employee voice and participation influence organizational culture
• What changes when organizations redefine leadership as something employees practice, not just something managers hold

Connect with Julie Newman

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-newman-chrl/

Email: willowhallhr@gmail.com

Website: www.willowhallhr.com 

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-deepen-your-breath/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Deepen your breath. 

Many of us are in the habit of shallow breathing, sometimes called chest breathing, where the collarbones and sometimes shoulders move up and down with each inhale and exhale. Because of tension in the muscles, or sometimes just because of the general speed of working life, our bodies can get used to a shallow, fast rhythm of breathing, using only a small amount of our lung capacity and giving us only a small amount of oxygen. Shallow breathing can also increase heart rate and blood pressure, making you feel anxious, or it can prevent CO2 from exiting the body, making you feel sleepy.  

There are lots of great breathing techniques out there to try, but my suggestion today is a very simple one. It’s to focus on the location of your inhale and exhale. More specifically, I’d like you to think about the location of the sensations of inhaling and exhaling. This is not a clinical anatomical question, and there’s no right answer. Rather it’s an imaginative exercise.

First notice where you are most aware of the feeling of your inhale and exhale. It might be your chest or belly, but it may be somewhere else, your nose for example. If the location is high, in your face or upper chest, try to gently shift the location down a few inches, imagining that the air was entering the filling your body lower down. Keep going down a few inches at a time until you reach your lower belly. Don’t overthink this exercise, just imagine air filling your body. 

If you’re already feeling your breath in your belly, you might imagine it expanding upward instead, filling also your middle abdomen and chest. Don’t force anything, just imagine opening more space for the air to flow in and out.

Not only does deep, full breathing reduce all kinds of anxiety and stress, research shows that it improves concentration and mental clarity as well. It will likely make you appear more relaxed and approachable to other people as well. 

Try this breath location exercise a few times throughout the day, maybe before and after meetings, or anytime you want to feel more calm, more centered, or more focused.  

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/why-leadership-training-must-go-beyond-executives-to-reach-the-front-lines-samantha-hurwitz/

Many organizations invest heavily in developing executives while overlooking the people closest to the daily work. Samantha Hurwitz challenges that top-down approach by showing why leadership capability must be developed across an entire organization — and how giving front-line employees the skills to influence decisions changes the way teams operate.

Samantha Hurwitz is co-author of Leadership is Half the Story and co-founder of FliP University, a training and development company based in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. Together with her partner Marc Hurwitz, she developed practical programs that help organizations teach leadership skills across roles and levels, and they are also co-founders of the Global Followership Conference, where Samantha and Sharna first connected in 2019.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why leadership development programs often fail when they focus only on senior leaders
• How organizations can develop leadership skills among frontline employees
• Why shared responsibility improves inclusion and employee ownership
• What changes when companies move from a leader-centered model to a partner-centered culture
• How to measure the impact of organization-wide leadership development
  
  

Episode Resources

Flip University
http://flip.university

Leadership is Half the Story, Marc Hurwitz and Samantha Hurwitz
https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Half-Story-Followership-Collaboration/dp/1487522460

Samantha Hurwitz on LinkedIn
http://ww.linkedin.com/in/samanthakerrhurwitz/

Global Followership Conference
http://ww.followershipconference.com

Referenced Articles

Meindl, J. R., Ehrlich, S. B., Dukerich, J. M. (1985). The romance of leadership. Administrative Science Quarterly, 30(1), 78-102. https://doi.org/10.2307/2392813

Hurwitz, M., & Hurwitz, S. (2009). The romance of the follower: Part 1. Industrial and Commercial Training, 41(2), 80-86. https://doi.org/10.1108/00197850910939117

Hurwitz, M., & Hurwitz, S. (2009). The romance of the follower: Part 2. Industrial and Commercial Training, 41(4), 199-206. https://doi.org/10.1108/00197850910962788

Hurwitz, M., & Hurwitz, S. (2009). The romance of the follower: Part 3. Industrial and Commercial Training, 41(6), 326-333. https://doi.org/10.1108/00197850910983929

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/why-job-titles-dont-determine-who-leads-in-crisis-situations-chris-fuzie/

In a crisis, a title on an organizational chart does not guarantee the right person has the answer. Drawing from 28 years in law enforcement, Dr. Chris Fuzie explains why teams succeed when people understand when to step forward, when to support others, and how responsibility works when authority is shared.

Dr. Chris Fuzie is the owner of CMF Leadership Consulting and creator of the Effective Followership training program. A retired Lieutenant/Commander from the Modesto Police Department, he led specialized teams including Homicide Investigations, Hostage Negotiations, and Street-Level Drug Enforcement. He is a graduate of the FBI National Academy, a former National Instructor for the International Association of Chiefs of Police, and currently serves as Business/HR Manager for the Stanislaus County District Attorney’s Office in California.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why “there’s no rank in the chopper” is a powerful lesson for organizational decision-making
• How leaders can delegate authority without losing accountability
• Why employees at every level are often making leadership decisions without formal titles
• How behavior-based training can improve performance across roles
• What crisis-response teams reveal about shared responsibility

Connect with Chris Fuzie

https://www.cmfleadership.com/effectivefollowership

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/successful-medical-teams-how-doctors-nurses-and-clinicians-shift-roles-erin-barry/

In healthcare, the person with the most authority is not always the person with the information the team needs most. Erin Barry explores why strong clinical teams depend on professionals who can shift roles, give and receive feedback, and recognize when the situation calls for them to step forward or support someone else. Erin’s research reveals a practical reality of patient care: healthcare is a team sport, and better outcomes depend on how well people coordinate their expertise, attention, and actions.

Erin Barry is Assistant Professor in the Department of Anesthesiology at the Uniformed Services University and a health professions education researcher focused on leadership, teamwork, and role flexibility in healthcare settings. She develops curriculum, assessments, and research focused on preparing healthcare professionals to work effectively in teams. She is also co-author of Innovative Leadership for Healthcare and co-founder of the International Leadership Association’s Healthcare Leadership Community.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why healthcare teams need professionals who can change roles depending on what the situation requires
• How peer feedback improves communication among clinicians
• How reflection helps healthcare professionals understand their own teamwork patterns
• What educators can do to prepare clinicians for collaborative decision-making

Connect with Erin Barry
https://www.usuhs.edu/node/11086

Episode References

Ed O’Malley and Julia Fabris McBride, Kansas Leadership Center, When Everyone Leads: How The Toughest Challenges Get Seen And Solved

Previous episode: Leadership, Followership and Emotional Intelligence (IWU Part 3) - Yolonda Tonette Sanders 

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-tune-in/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is Tune in. 

You’ve probably heard many times that active listening is an important skill for just about anything, including leadership and followership. Tuning in does include listening with your ears, but it’s much more than that. It’s more like listening with your whole body, directing your attention with all of your senses open toward one person or one group of people. Think of the phrase reading the room. To do that well we need to do more than listen to what people say. We need to tune in on a nonverbal level, or become attuned to the person or people we’re interacting with. Think of adjusting an old analog radio dial or radio antenna to clear the static and hear the signal more clearly. 

That’s what we want to do when we tune in. We’re clearing the static from our own perception so that we can receive clear signals from the people in front of us, at least as clear as possible, so that we can respond to them appropriately.

So start noticing subtle things like emotional tone, speech volume, energy level, facial expression and body posture. Does the person seem upbeat? Tired? Concerned? Enthusiastic? Distracted? It could be a lot of things, and to be clear, you will never know exactly what another person is feeling or experiencing, unless they tell you. 

We misread each other all the time, because we think that like professional actors, we’re transparent, that what we express in our facial expression what we’re feeling on the inside. But most people are actually NOT transparent. Tuning in is not mind-reading.

Still, observing the other person’s nonverbal signals does a couple of very useful things. One: like a mindfulness practice, it brings you into the present moment, making it less likely that you’ll get distracted by your own thoughts. And two: it makes the other person feel a little bit more seen by you, as a human being, and that one of the most reliable ways to create connection, even with a stranger, and set the stage for a more honest, more productive conversation. 

Try this out, experiment, and let me know how it goes!

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-4-h-builds-youth-leadership-skills-through-teamwork-maddie-gray/

Long before people have a job title, youth programs can teach them how to step forward, support others, and handle the challenges of working with a team. Maddie Gray shares how fifteen years in 4-H shaped her understanding of when to take initiative, when to support a teammate, and how strong teams depend on people who can move between roles.

Maddie Gray is a Leadership & Organizational Studies major at the University of Southern Maine and a member of the USM Collegiate Leadership Competition team. She has been involved with 4-H for fifteen years, where she developed skills through public speaking competitions, team experiences, and youth leadership opportunities. Her perspective offers a firsthand look at how young people learn to contribute, communicate, and grow through shared responsibility.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How youth leadership programs help people develop confidence before they have formal authority
• Why rotating leadership roles can strengthen team communication
• How to approach difficult conversations with teammates
• Why accepting a support role can be just as important as taking charge

Episode References 

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower
https://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/dp/1605092738/

4-H Youth Development Organization
https://4-h.org/

Dancing Guy – First Follower Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ

Support the show

*
Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-great-meeting-agendas/

Your lead and follow coaching tip for today is make meeting agendas and make them great. 

One reason we tend to complain about meetings is that they feel like a waste of time. I know that when I don’t have any meaningful way to participate, or the topic isn’t relevant to me, I can’t get out of the room fast enough, and if I’m required to be in the meeting, I start feeling resentful pretty fast, because my time is limited and I have things to do. I imagine you may feel the same way.

The good news is that if you are leading a meeting, you have a lot of influence over how that time is spent. Making a great agenda is one way you can make really good use of time. I know the term agenda may sound boring, but it doesn’t have to be. I actually really love agendas because to me a well-crafted meeting agenda is like a well-crafted choreography or set of stage directions. Basically, it’s a way of organizing time so that the meeting flows in a logical, useful, and maybe even interesting and fun.

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
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Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/teaching-leadership-skills-through-games-activities-and-reflection-fran-kick/

Most leadership training focuses on the person in charge. Fran Kick takes a different approach: using interactive games and experiential learning to help people see how they contribute when they are leading, supporting, making decisions, and working as part of a team. From fifth-grade classrooms to Fortune 500 organizations, Fran shows why understanding both sides of a working relationship creates stronger results.

Fran Kick is an author, educational consultant, and professional speaker with more than 30 years of experience in education and business. Drawing from his background in Educational Psychology, he designs workshops, programs, and keynotes that combine leadership development with the skills people need to contribute effectively within teams. He is also a Certified Speaking Professional through the National Speakers Association.

You’ll learn:

• How learning games can reveal team behaviors that traditional training misses
• Why leadership development is more effective when it includes the people supporting the work
• How experiential activities help participants practice communication and decision-making
• Why Fran teaches leadership and support skills together in classrooms and corporations
• What happens when organizations stop viewing leadership as only a role or title

Connect with Fran Kick
www.kickitin.com

Episode references: 

• Neil Howe and William Strauss, Generations
• Morris Massey's Stages of Values Development
• The work of Marshall Goldsmith 
• The social change model of leadership development
• Edgar H. Schein and Peter A. Schein, Humble Leadership 

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-style-your-language/

If you’re a strongly narrative thinker, you may respond to any kind of question by telling a story. That usually starts by providing considerable background information and then describing what happened in chronological order. Stories are definitely a crucial part of how we learn, but they can also be time-consuming and therefore sometimes distracting.

Abstract thinkers like me fall on the opposite end of the spectrum. If this is you, you probably tend to zero in on one specific detail that you feel is important, or provide the verbal equivalent of a bulleted list. If someone asks you how your day was, you might just give a quick one-word assessment or list a few key events that took place. 

Boiling things down to the essentials is definitely time-efficient, but it can also prevent people from relating to you and understanding why they should care about what you are saying to begin with. The single detail doesn’t always give someone that bridge into your perspective like a story does. We even know from research in neuroscience that stories create an emotional hook and that’s why they motivate people to act, to learn and to change.

Both abstract and narrative thinking are useful in the right context. The question is: Which one will help you the most with the conversation or interaction you are having right now?  

A good rule of thumb is to use stories for presentations, proposals, and establishing common ground. Use concepts for troubleshooting, project updates, or brainstorming.

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/why-great-architects-know-when-to-lead-and-when-to-listen-michael-christoff/

An architect’s job is not just to bring a vision to life — it is to understand a client’s goals, challenges, and way of working well enough to create a space that truly serves them. Michael Christoff explores how designers move between leading with expertise and listening deeply to clients and collaborators throughout the design process.

Michael Christoff is Senior Associate and Practice Leader for Architecture at Vocon. He holds a Master of Architecture from Kent State University and an MBA from John Carroll University, and has developed expertise across corporate headquarters, mixed-use, and multifamily projects. Beyond his professional practice, Michael has contributed to Cleveland’s creative community through PechaKucha Night Cleveland, nonprofit arts and education boards, international design competitions, and leadership with the American Institute of Architects Cleveland Chapter.

You’ll learn:

• Why architects must balance creative authority with client understanding
• How listening becomes a critical design skill
• Why professionals need to shift roles throughout a project’s lifecycle
• How project teams decide when someone should lead and when someone should support
• What architecture teaches us about collaboration and shared responsibility

Episode References:

www.vocon.com

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-stretch-before-meetings/

Your lead & follow coaching tip for today is Stretch Before Meetings

Pre-meeting stretches, especially if you can stand up to do them, wake up your body so that you can connect more easily and more quickly to other people. Just 15 seconds is enough!

One the reasons the quick stretch works is that when you sit still for long periods of time, whole sections of your nervous system kind of go to sleep. Without your physical senses active, you’re actually less aware of your own body and your own emotional state, and having your body half asleep can make it harder to think. 

Try this out and let me know how it goes!

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-universities-teach-leadership-through-real-team-experience-dan-jenkins/

Leadership programs often teach people how to take charge — but fewer teach what happens when those same people are part of a team where someone else is leading. Dan Jenkins explores how changing the way leadership education is designed can help students develop a deeper understanding of teamwork, communication, and the responsibilities that come with every role on a team.

Dan Jenkins is Professor of Leadership & Organizational Studies at the University of Southern Maine and an expert in leadership education, curriculum design, and learning assessment. He is co-author of The Role of Leadership Educators: Transforming Learning and has published more than 40 articles and book chapters on leadership education. He is also a co-founder of the International Leadership Association’s Leadership Education Academy, Vice-Chair of the Collegiate Leadership Competition, Associate Editor of the Journal of Leadership Studies, and co-host of The Leadership Educator Podcast.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why leadership programs benefit from teaching students multiple team roles
• How experiencing different roles changes the way students understand teamwork
• How educators can design leadership courses that build stronger team awareness
• What research reveals about students who learn to contribute beyond a leadership position

Episode References

Global Followership Conference
www.followershipconference.com 

The Leadership Educator Podcast
theleadershipeducator.podbean.com

Collegiate Leadership Competition
www.collegiateleader.org

 New Directions in Student Leadership, Volume 2020, Issue 167
Special Issue: Followership Education 

Leadership is Half the Story by Marc Hurwitz and Samantha Hurwitz

Kolb’s Experiential Learning Model

The Role of Leadership Educators: Transforming Learning

Leadership and Followership Tango Video 

The Courageous Follower by Ira Chaleff 

ILA Leadership Education Academy

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
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Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/quick-tips-dress-comfortably/

Your lead & follow coaching tip for today is Dress Comfortably

This tip comes straight from my training as a social dancer, which includes a big focus on subtle non-verbal communication. To understand why this might be important in a professional context, think about communication in a very broad sense, not only as the words you speak or write, but also as the non-verbal tones and qualities you transmit to another person through your whole presence, through your body language, through your expression, your emotional state. And this is true by the way even if you’re writing an email, if you’re on video conference, if you’re talking on the phone. The way you feel in your body when you’re communicating, directly influences what you actually communicate, no matter what the delivery format may be.

Try this out and let me know how it goes!

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-emotional-intelligence-helps-employees-speak-up-at-work-yolonda-tonette-sanders/

Many organizations say they want honest feedback and better ideas — but creating teams where people feel confident enough to question, challenge, and contribute requires more than asking for input. Dr. Yolonda Tonette Sanders explores how emotional intelligence influences the way people participate on teams and why leaders benefit from understanding the behaviors that help others speak up.

Dr. Yolonda Tonette Sanders is co-founder of Traction, an organizational change consulting company, and holds a PhD in Organizational Leadership from Indiana Wesleyan University. Her research examines the relationship between emotional intelligence and patterns of team contribution, building on her experience as a CEO, board member, program director, author, and educator.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How emotional intelligence affects the way people contribute within teams
• Why employees with strong judgment still need environments where they can speak up
• How leaders can encourage constructive challenge instead of passive agreement
• Why the best ideas often come from people without the final decision-making authority
• What emotionally intelligent teams do differently when solving problems

Episode References 

Robert Kelley, Power of Followership 

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower

Daniel Goleman, Emotional Intelligence

Barbara Kellerman, Followership

Connect with Dr. Yolonda Tonette Sanders

Traction, an organizational change consulting company

Research Gate Scholarship Page

Amazon author page

Faith and Fellowship Book Festival

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/leading-in-human-services-why-listening-changes-outcomes-grace-wright/

In human services, leadership begins with understanding people — their needs, their experiences, and the perspectives they bring to a team. Grace Wright shares how her work in hunger relief and community services has shaped her belief that effective leaders must stay curious, listen carefully, and recognize the influence each person has in creating solutions.

Grace Wright is board president of the Euclid Hunger Center and community resource manager at University Settlement, a social service agency serving Cleveland’s Slavic Village neighborhood. She has spent 12 years working in hunger relief services, managing hunger centers throughout Greater Cleveland, and holds degrees in social work, nonprofit management, and an MBA from John Carroll University.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why listening is one of the most important skills for nonprofit leaders
• How community service work changes the way people think about leadership
• Why assumptions about people’s intentions can limit effective teamwork
• How leaders can adapt their approach as teams and circumstances change
• What human-centered leadership looks like in mission-driven organizations

University Settlement
www.universitysettlement.net

Euclid Hunger Center
www.euclidhungercenter.com

Tango Video
Leadership and Followership: What Tango Teaches Us About These Roles in Life

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-leaders-build-capable-teams-without-doing-everything-themselves-chad-bennett/

Many leaders become the person everyone depends on — but that can prevent the very people around them from developing their own skills and confidence. Chad Bennett shares how learning both sides of team dynamics changed the way he approaches leadership, delegation, and developing people who can contribute beyond their assigned roles.

Chad Bennett is Director of Technology for Sturgis Public Schools in Michigan and Tech/Production Director for Radiant Life Church. He completed his Bachelor of Science degree in Organizational Leadership from Indiana Wesleyan University, where he studied leadership alongside the skills needed to contribute effectively within teams. His experience leading technology and volunteer teams gives him a practical perspective on creating opportunities for others to grow.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why leaders can unintentionally limit teams by holding onto too much responsibility
• How delegation helps people develop new skills and confidence
• Why team members contribute more when they understand their role in the bigger mission
• How leaders can create opportunities for others to step up
• What servant leadership looks like when everyone contributes to the work

References

John 13: Jesus Washes His Disciples Feet 

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/rethinking-leadership-education-why-roles-matter-more-than-rank-michael-linville-and-mark-rennaker/

Many leadership programs teach people how to lead — but fewer explore what makes people effective when they are contributing from every other role on a team. Michael Linville and Mark Rennaker discuss why understanding team roles, purpose, and contribution changes the way students and professionals think about leadership.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why leadership education is incomplete without understanding how teams function
• How separating roles from rank changes students’ perspectives on leadership
• Why purpose can become the foundation for how people contribute within organizations
• What educators can do to create more complete leadership development programs
• How understanding different team roles can change the way people see themselves and others

Michael W. Linville is professor in Indiana Wesleyan University’s PhD in Organizational Leadership program. He holds several certifications in areas such as leadership, emotional intelligence, and personality typology, including Ira Chaleff’s Followership Train the Trainer program. Combining 15 years of corporate experience with 25 years of international nonprofit experience (including four years directing a college in Kiev, Ukraine), Linville was awarded Dragomanov University’s Silver Medallion Award in 2009 for his service and contribution to education in Ukraine. He also leads an international nonprofit organization that he founded in 2001 and is the cofounder and senior adviser of a leadership think tank based in Ukraine. Linville regularly presents on leadership and followership topics at various national and international academic and professional conferences, including the International Leadership Association’s Annual Global Conference. He also consults with organizations and individuals both nationally and internationally.

Mark A. Rennaker is chair of the Division of Leadership and Followership Studies at Indiana Wesleyan University. He served 30 years in faith-based and nonprofit leadership roles at local, regional, and national levels. He has also served a variety of leadership roles during 15 years of higher education experience, and he is certified with Ira Chaleff’s Followership Train the Trainer program. Rennaker has multiple research interests, including servant-leadership, trust, followership, and human resource development. Rennaker regularly presents on leadership, followership, and higher education topics at national and international academic and professional conferences, including the International Leadership Association’s Annual Global Conference. He consults with organizations and speaks at various events. 

Connect with Dr. Michael Linville and Dr. Mark Rennaker
www.purposeshipmatters.com

Order your copy of Essentials of Followership
Order at Kendall Hunt
Order on Amazon
Order at Barnes and Noble

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/the-problem-with-teaching-leadership-without-team-awareness-scott-allen/

Leadership education often focuses on how people take charge — but Scott Allen believes people need a broader understanding of how they contribute within a team system. Through his work with students, educators, and organizations, Scott explores how awareness of different roles helps people become more intentional, effective participants in any group.

Scott Allen, PhD, is professor of management at John Carroll University and co-founder of the Collegiate Leadership Competition, an experiential program that helps students practice leadership in real-world team settings. He is also an author, host of Phronesis: Practical Wisdom for Leaders, and a frequent facilitator of leadership workshops across industries.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why leadership development is incomplete without understanding the full team system
• How awareness changes the way people participate in groups
• Why intentionality matters more than simply holding a leadership role
• What students learn when they practice different roles within teams
• How educators can create leadership programs that prepare people for real-world collaboration

Connect with Scott Allen
www.scottjallen.net

Collegiate Leadership Competition
www.collegiateleader.org

Phronesis Podcast Episodes
Dr. Barbara Kellerman - Leader, Followers, & Contexts

Dr. Ron Riggio - Leadership: Here's What We Know

Sharna Fabiano – Connect, Collaborate, Co-Create

Sharna Fabiano – Lead & Follow

Dr. John Ross - Team Unity: A Leader's Guide to Unlocking Extraordinary Potential 

Other Resources

John Ross, Team Unity 

Kansas Leadership Center, “Intervene skillfully”

Youtube Video Clip, Apollo 13 - A New Mission

Mike Linville and Mark Rennaker, Essentials of Followership

Anthony E. Middlebrooks, Scott J. Allen, Mindy S. (Sue) McNutt, James L. Morrison, Discovering Leadership, second edition

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support

Full transcript and show notes: https://www.sharnafabiano.com/2026/07/29/how-college-students-learn-to-lead-without-being-in-charge-henry-sergent/

Many college students think leadership begins when they are given a title or position — but Henry Sergent discovered that influence happens long before that. Through student clubs, fraternity conversations, and creative projects, Henry shares how learning to contribute, support others, and shape group outcomes changed the way he understands teamwork.

Henry Sergent is a third-year student at Christopher Newport University and a participant in the university’s President’s Leadership Program. Through the program’s focus on different roles within teams, he has applied what he learned while organizing the student golf club, participating in campus organizations, and collaborating on creative projects like a clothing brand photo shoot.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How college students can build leadership skills before holding formal positions
• Why strong teams depend on people who contribute ideas from every role
• How creative projects reveal different ways to influence a group
• Why self-awareness helps people find their best contribution on a team
• What students gain when they learn to support a group’s success, not just lead it

Henry Sergent's Hand-Painted Vintage Clothing
IG @sergentvintage

Support the show

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Sharna Fabiano is the author of Lead & Follow: The Dance of Inspired Teamwork and host of the Lead & Follow Podcast. She helps founders, solopreneurs, and new leaders build strong collaborative relationships and successful teams. 

Get a discounted coach session with Sharna with promo code PODCAST
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/coaching/

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1735834/support